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Old 04-04-2016, 07:21 AM   #101
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Education, the willingness to take advantage of it, hard work, and diligence, are fundamental to achieving goals. Education through HS is free. College is not as expensive as it is made out to be if you take advantage of Community College and state universities (including their online courses). If local state colleges are attended the tuition cost in Fl for a 4 year degree would be around $18k ($4.5k/yr) + books before deductions for any scholarships, grants, government assistance, work/study programs etc. The other characteristics are up to the individual.

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Old 04-04-2016, 07:39 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by kcowan View Post
Those of us who take calculated risks that work out are often classed as lucky.
Let's talk about those who take those same risks that don't work out. They are, in every way, the same as you, except for luck. The only distinguishing factor between they and you is luck.

And that's just one level. Another aspect of luck is having the opportunity to take certain calculated risks that may pay off.

And so on...

Again, there's nothing wrong with luck playing a role in a commensurate bonus; the question is how much should society condone such luck (and yes: it's luck) playing a role in life and death?

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We are all biased by our own experiences but your statement that it is 100% achievable is not true for anywhere near 100% of the population and much less so for those who are starting off from the lower rungs of the ladder.
Precisely... It isn't 100% achievable. Achievement is binary, and there isn't capacity in the system, nor opportunities afforded to all, such that 100% can achieve it. Pick some other number. 60% maybe. Perhaps 65%? Maybe 70%? Lower than it was twenty years ago, but higher than it was forty years ago. And recent changes in society is making that percentage go down. That is what makes this all worth talking about... not just the gap between 70% and 100%, but that that percentage is decreasing.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:50 AM   #103
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Let's talk about those who take those same risks that don't work out. They are, in every way, the same as you, except for luck. The only distinguishing factor between they and you is luck.
And that's just one level. Another aspect of luck is having the opportunity to take certain calculated risks that may pay off.
And so on...

Again, there's nothing wrong with luck playing a role in a commensurate bonus; the question is how much should society condone that luck (and yes: it's luck) playing a role in life and death?

Precisely... It isn't 100% achievable. Achievement is binary, and there isn't capacity in the system, nor opportunities afforded to all, such that 100% can achieve it. Pick some other number. 60% maybe. Perhaps 65%? Maybe 70%? Lower than it was twenty years ago, but higher than it was forty years ago.
I have taken many risks that did not work out. The motivated people will get back on their feet and try again. And again a few more times, if necessary. The harder someone works, the luckier they get.

I owned a tavern that made very little money over the course of five years. Less than $1,000 a year. I spent 40+ hours a week, in addition to my FT job, trying to make it work. I invested heavily in a stock trading education, it didn’t work. I tried Section 8/Low income housing, it didn’t work. I ran for political office, it didn’t work. I investigated several franchises. I created a lawn mowing and snowplowing business, it worked, but not to the extent I wanted it to. If I look back, there are even more. Call them failures, or learning opportunities, depending on your outlook on life.

The American dream is 100% achievable for those that have the desire, ambition, fortitude and determination to achieve it. It is not even 10% achievable for those who do not.

Of course, if you give yourself excuses, you will never make it. If you are always a pessimist, even when you achieve it, you will continually blame others why it is not as good as it once was.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:14 AM   #104
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Okay I surrender. I acknowledge that you feel it is essential to make clear that those who face the reality of misfortune that you were lucky enough to avoid are somehow defective, insinuating that they must be inadequate with regard to desire, ambition, fortitude or determination instead of acknowledging that the system doesn't have the capacity of success for all who do have those characteristics, nor affords the opportunities to all who have those characteristics. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:18 AM   #105
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.......The motivated people will get back on their feet and try again. And again a few more times, if necessary. The harder someone works, the luckier they get......

The American dream is 100% achievable for those that have the desire, ambition, fortitude and determination to achieve it. It is not even 10% achievable for those who do not.

Of course, if you give yourself excuses, you will never make it. If you are always a pessimist, even when you achieve it, you will continually blame others why it is not as good as it once was.
+100. Very well said.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:11 AM   #106
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Of course, if you give yourself excuses, you will never make it. If you are always a pessimist, even when you achieve it, you will continually blame others why it is not as good as it once was.
Sleight of hand. You must be running for office. This is not excuse making and you know it. Say otherwise but it won't work. You just can't afford the to waste the opportunity to demean it. It is a 100% true observation of reality. Your attempt to deflect it is so knee jerk I made 20 bucks off of it. Now that's seizing opportunity! Thank you.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:15 AM   #107
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Let's disagree without being disagreeable, eh?
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:24 AM   #108
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If course, if you give yourself excuses, you will never make it.
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Let's disagree without being disagreeable, eh?
To be fair, I'm not sure that Senator could express his actual perspective without using the pejorative word "excuses". That's pretty much why I "agreed to disagree" above, because I know of no reasonable viable path from strongly-held pejorative stances to agreeable disagreement.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:44 AM   #109
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Thanks for an interesting discussion

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