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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-14-2006, 08:13 PM   #41
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
So you are willing to trust these nutcases to not use it? Didn't you start this thread saying we needed a draft for a 500K man army to stop them? I agree with Nords, you are a troll.
Did not say that the whole thing seems absurd, that is what I said. The 5 million man army was what I talked about to do what needs to be done NOW not when the mullahs have their bomb.

Geesh.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-14-2006, 08:15 PM   #42
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by ADJ
One can argue that Germany deserved it and not Japan but somehow they were able to convince themselves that the yellow people deserved it more.
Uh, excuse me but German cities were bombed extensively during the last phases of the war, the difference was that conventional bombs were used and many of our and Germany's aviators were killed in addition to the civilian casualties.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-14-2006, 08:23 PM   #43
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Did not say that the whole thing seems absurd, that is what I said.
Huh? I can't understand this doubletalk. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but it's all Greek to me. I'm done with this thread.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-14-2006, 08:23 PM   #44
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by bosco
Terrorism as a concept means nothing if it's called something else just because you are in agreement with that side. If we don't like them, they are terrorists. If we like them, they are Contras, or freedom fighters, or some such rubbish. It gets a bit akward when the same group is involved (i.e. mujahadeen, who we supported, then didn't). The significance of the Taliban in Afganistan, whom the US supported as a means of giving Russia a black eye, seems to be lost on many Americans. The fact the the US did so much to further the cause of radical Islam is a bitter irony. I guess the Commies must have been even worse.
Excellent point. What you are witnessing is the mentality that arises from state sponsored propaganda to control one's thinking instead of looking at the issues critically. The so called terrorists (American term since the respectable media use the term insurgents), I can bet do not view themselves at terrorists but merely people fighting to free their country from the grip of American control and influence. In that regard, they can be compared to Americans that fought for independence from Britain. While their tactics seem barbaric and I for one do not support violence, to them, they are using whatever is at their disposal. I wonder how many in the media would be able to say that and still keep their jobs.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 05:49 AM   #45
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by ADJ
Excellent point. What you are witnessing is the mentality that arises from state sponsored propaganda to control one's thinking instead of looking at the issues critically. The so called terrorists (American term since the respectable media use the term insurgents), I can bet do not view themselves at terrorists but merely people fighting to free their country from the grip of American control and influence. In that regard, they can be compared to Americans that fought for independence from Britain. While their tactics seem barbaric and I for one do not support violence, to them, they are using whatever is at their disposal. I wonder how many in the media would be able to say that and still keep their jobs.
Excellent post!

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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 06:43 AM   #46
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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This is the argument that's always used to justify this cowardly and evil act. One can argue that Germany deserved it and not Japan but somehow they were able to convince themselves that the yellow people deserved it more. Bitter wars have always been fought and many lives lost but the nuking of innocent civilians to the tune of millions can never never ever be justified under any scenario. I can think of many many countries the US attacked unprovoked under the guise of protecting their interest?. Does this justify an attack on the innocent American civilian in return. I always content that Americans do not vehemently oppose wars because they don't really understand the suffering of people in war. It's easy when it's happening to other people to turn the other cheek.
This will be my last post on this thread, since we are arguing in a circle and nobody is making any progress. I don't remember the name of the German city off the top of my head, but I know there was one that was fired bombed so extensively, that according to German witnesses, the winds produced pulled more fuel into the fire making it self propagating. The end result was the entire city was destroyed, but no nukes were used and I don't see anybody putting out the foolish idea to apologize to the Germans.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 07:31 AM   #47
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
This will be my last post on this thread, since we are arguing in a circle and nobody is making any progress. I don't remember the name of the German city off the top of my head, but I know there was one that was fired bombed so extensively, that according to German witnesses, the winds produced pulled more fuel into the fire making it self propagating. The end result was the entire city was destroyed, but no nukes were used and I don't see anybody putting out the foolish idea to apologize to the Germans.
You're thinking of Dresden, and the idea of apologizing for it has been a hot topic of debate for some years now, though none has formally been issued to my knowledge. Winston Churchill reportedly considered it (and the similar firebombings of Tokyo and other cities) to be a war crime, apparently feeling quite conflicted about the whole policy of bombing cities in general.

So it goes.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 07:53 AM   #48
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

You are probably thinking of Dresden, which is the most infamous case, but there were others.

The bombing of cities in Europe during WW II really needs to be put into context and is a very complex moral and military subject that continues to generate student papers at the War Colleges today (I wrote a few myself). Just a few observatons:
---Germany and Britain were engaged in a no-holds barred struggle for survival. There was no doubt that a German victory would have meant virtual enslavement of the Brittain. When the stakes are high, the gloves come off. As an historical note, the UK was well along in the development of anthrax bombs for use against Germans on the Continent if the need arose.
--- While Britain was bombing these cities, the Germans were doing their very best to do the same to the UK. Memory joggers: Coventry, V-1, V-2, blitz.
--- There was nothing especially barbaric about aerial bombardment in comparison to other means of warfare during WW II. The city of Stalingrad was as thoroughly destroyed by artillery and troops up close as any city targeted by bombers--it was the bloodiest battle in human history. Sending hundreds of thousands of US troops to Iran, besides being crazy, would not likely result in less Iranian carnage than other means of attacking targets there.
--- As a practical matter, the UK was on the ropes in the early years of the war. Germany was at the door and the UK did not have a toehold on the Continent from which to attack. Aerial bombardment (and the Royal Navy) were the only means to stave off Germany while buiding strength for an eventual invasion of continental Europey. The US favored "precision" daylight bombing to target particular German industrial targets deemed crucial to the war effort. Due to practical limitations in being able to strike these targets with precision and due to errors in determining exactly which nodes were truly critical to the German war effort, this US campaign had limited success. Still, the US deserves a lot of credit for attempting to minimize civilian casualties while making the most of the limited air power tools of the time. (And, believe it or not, there was considerable debate about the morality of targeting German cities at the time, even given the nature of the war). American aviators paid a heavy price for attempting to implement daylight precision bombing, and it did produce some noteable results that impacted the war effort, particularly with respect to German POL production and some portions of the transportaton system. The RAF decided early on that daylight bombing was going to cost them a lot of lives and would be limited in effectiveness. and began a campaign of night bombing of German cities (effectively, only area targets could be hit at night). The US also helped them in many of these raids, it was a combined offensive. While there was some hope that the raids might break German morale (which we might today classify as a"terrorist" objective), the primary officialy objective of the raids was also to displace German war workers and disrupt production. Now, Dresden is more difficult to explain in this light, as it was not a major industrial city. Still, it did have important rail facilities and there was some belief, as it had not been struck up to that time, that it was being viewed by the Germans as a sanctuary and that war production was likely being moved there. This is tenuous rationale at best. But, placed in the context of the time, the Dresden raid is at least understandable. Take a look at pictures of 1943 London, imagine you are driving through that on the way to an RAF targeting meeting, and tell yourself that you would stand up and tell everyone Dresden was too pretty to bomb. Not gonna hapen.


Note: The fire bombing of Tokyo (a "conventional, non-WMD" attack) killed more people than the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It doesn't take a WMD to kil thousands of people, but it does make it easier and more difficult to defend against.

Does this have anything to do with Muslim terrorists? I don't think so, but maybe they do. In general, targeting of civilians does not produce the results expected by the atacker--it hardens attitudes, strengthens the will of those attacked, and makes t more difficult to achieve results. Still, if the war of civilizations (modernism, rationalism and the scientific method, respect for the dignity of the individual vs. a barbaric 6th century theocracitic world view) ever makes it necessary or useful to engage in widescale killing (and to accept civilian casualties of our own) to preserve our civilization, the West will do it. I hope.

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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 08:57 AM   #49
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

In the Spanish Civil War, there was a town in northern Spain called
Guernica. On April 26, 1937, German pilots in German planes bombed
the town and then strafed the survivors with machine guns. The town had zero military significance and all casualties were civilian. Sherman said
"War is hell!" He knew what he was talking about.

JG
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 09:52 AM   #50
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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I wish I had the answers. I wish somebody had them..
Thanks for your comments bosco. I also wish someone had the answers!

Sometimes it seems like the presidential election controversies, the impeachment of Clinton and the war in Iraq have combined to make some folks so angry that's it's impossible to discuss where to go from here. It seems like all criticisms and no suggestions. And everything presented in the most mean-spirited way possible.

For folks who seem to emotionally benefit from screaming half-truth accusations and semi-facts back and forth, I suppose these forums are as good a place to do that sort of thing as any. But it does seem like the same ole sh*t repeated again and again and again. :P

We'll see political forces shift. And, we'll see them shift back. And then shift again. And on and on through time. My hope is that the new holders of power are able to focus on positive, thoughtful leadership and not exclusively on retribution, revenge and hate, regardless of which direction the power shifts are taking.

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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 09:54 AM   #51
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Originally Posted by samclem
How are those Canadian indigenous people doing? I don't think they are running Canada ,are they? I think their land was stolen, too. Give it back, you plaid-wearing imperialist thugs!
since you brough it up, there are two differences between how the US and Canada have handled the issue of indigenous people

1) Canada managed to steal their land without using the army to slaughter them, passing out measles blankets, etc.
2) Canada is currently in the process of negotiating with them to return lands and money in compensation (beyond 'reservations' or 'reserves' as they are called in Canada). E.xcept in Alaska, this has not been done in the US to any meaningful extent (except for deeding a couple of firecracker stands and cigarette stores).

this is not to say that Canada is blameless by a long strectch. However, Canada seems to be more willing to acknowledge mistakes and attempt to do something about it. Which is not to say there isn't room for improvement.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 10:10 AM   #52
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Which is not to say there isn't room for improvement.
Looks like you too are a master of understatement!
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 04:15 PM   #53
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Does this have anything to do with Muslim terrorists? I don't think so, but maybe they do. In general, targeting of civilians does not produce the results expected by the atacker--it hardens attitudes, strengthens the will of those attacked, and makes t more difficult to achieve results. Still, if the war of civilizations (modernism, rationalism and the scientific method, respect for the dignity of the individual vs. a barbaric 6th century theocracitic world view) ever makes it necessary or useful to engage in widescale killing (and to accept civilian casualties of our own) to preserve our civilization, the West will do it. I hope.
Although I agree with much of this statement, I feel compelled to point out that Islam is not a monolith. The fanatic variety (Wahabism) has made inroads in recent years, in no small part due to US policies. In fact, during the dark ages of Europe, it was Islamic universities that preserved the world's knowledge. Without this, the Renaissance would not have happened. Also, someone pointed out to me that women had more rights under Islamic law than they did under British law until fairly recently in history. I can't verify that, but I don't think women had many rights under British law until fairly late in the game, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's true.

Also, just because Islam was formulated in the 5th century doesn't make all Islamic thinking representative of a "barbaric 6th century theocratic word view" any more than all Christian thinking is a "barbaric 1st century theocratic view." Islamic fundamentalists scare me a lot. So do Christian fundamentalists. Both groups seem all too willing to subjegate human rights to their own theology. Both have a violent streak.

Islam is not going to go away, and we aren't going to be able to kill them all. I still think the best way to attempt to diffuse the radical varieties is to accord more legitimacy to the moderate types. But what do I know--I'm just a dumb atheist, with dualing philosophy and engineering degrees.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-15-2006, 09:28 PM   #54
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Islam is not going to go away, and we aren't going to be able to kill them all. I still think the best way to attempt to diffuse the radical varieties is to accord more legitimacy to the moderate types. But what do I know--I'm just a dumb atheist, with dualing philosophy and engineering degrees.
Christianity isn't going to go away either. Do you suggest the same formula to diffuse the radial Christians? That is, accord more legitimacy to the moderate types?
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-16-2006, 01:50 AM   #55
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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Christianity isn't going to go away either. Do you suggest the same formula to diffuse the radial Christians? That is, accord more legitimacy to the moderate types?
I haven't noticed the kind of prejudice against Christians that I have against Muslims. As far as I can see, Christians are not discriminated against in the US, and they are already pretty mainstream. Most people don't confuse mainstream Judeo-Christian values with the blathering of the fringe elements. I don't think many people, for example, support murder of doctors that perform abortions. But neither are all Christians blamed for the actions of these whackos.
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-16-2006, 08:17 AM   #56
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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I haven't noticed the kind of prejudice against Christians that I have against Muslims. As far as I can see, Christians are not discriminated against in the US
I guess it depends where you look. On this board, for example, a broad-brushed condemnation of Islamists will get you corrected fairly quickly. Stereotyping and generally condemning Christians is frequently accepted.

Perhaps I'm too sensitive. I don't like to stereotype, categorize, bucketize, etc., people at all.

But in any regard, it sounds like you're saying that you feel that if we could stop prejudice against Islamists in the USA, there would be less or no Islamic terrorism to worry about in the USA?
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-16-2006, 09:53 AM   #57
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

So............we want to ISOLATE Iran, but we NEED their HELP with Iraq?

I don't like that nutcase from Iran anymore than you do, but if I were him I'd tell the US that he's going to "isolate himself" from Iraq................
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-16-2006, 09:59 AM   #58
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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But in any regard, it sounds like you're saying that you feel that if we could stop prejudice against Islamists in the USA, there would be less or no Islamic terrorism to worry about in the USA?
No, I'm saying that taking the attitude that mainstraim Muslims are decent people, treating them like partners in the war on terrorism might make some sense. If I were a Muslim and I knew something, the last thing I would do in the current climate is say something to anyone official. You kidding? I'd go home and shut up, even if I overheard something useful. The government would have the right to make me disappear and torture me. I wouldn't expect them to treat me as anything other than an enemy combatant. Case in point: Maher Arar (although he wasn't American, the fact that he was from Canada allowed his story to come out. I wonder how many Arar's there are in the US). Do you think anyone in his community will be talking now about anything? And he didn't even know anything whatsoever.

The behavior of the US government, IMO, has polarized the situation and ratcheted up the fear. The net result will likely be a total clamming up of the Islamic community. Is that in our interest? It might be a lot tougher to recruit nutjobs in the mosque etc. if they had to worry about other Muslims ratting them out.

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Re: Isolating Iran Funny
Old 11-16-2006, 10:43 AM   #59
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Re: Isolating Iran Funny

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No, I'm saying that taking the attitude that mainstraim Muslims are decent people, treating them like partners in the war on terrorism might make some sense.
Agreed.
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