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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 02:03 PM   #41
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

CFB, you made some good points, as well as some points with which I disagree (so I guess those would be the bad points, then ). Unfortunately I'm at work and don't really have time to get into a detailed response -- oh wait a minute, is that the rest of the board saying "thank you, we won't have to put up with that"? -- but I'll briefly comment that although I agree with much of your timeline, and a number of your conclusions, I still think the basis of it with which I was disagreeing is wrong: most of the Iraqis whom Saddam threw into his rape rooms, or executed, or even just put in jail, were normal people who had done no wrong. You may be right about some of the bad things we've done there, but that in no way excuses or changes the fact of what Saddam did wrong, which really was brutal. Never mind the disproportionate force used against people who actually did plot against him, there are mass graves full of people who were as innocent as Bambi. It's completely unfair to them, I believe, to lump them in with the handful of rebels and criminals who "got their just desserts" or whatever (again, it's not like Saddam's torture was really just), and claim that they in any way deserved what happened to them. Fer chrissakes, he burned down villages and rounded up whole families -- most of the women and children in Iraq couldn't do anything criminal, let alone whether they wanted to.

I can understand the pre-coffee haziness, most of my posts are like that, or completely whacked out on opiates or something ..but I do think it's unfair.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 02:11 PM   #42
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
So your point is that you feel that protesters of the vietnam war felt like and in fact were in as much danger from the US government as Iraqis who protested against Hussein?

Do you REALLY believe that?

Does ANYONE else?
No, definitely not.* Your question to me involved protests in the USA today vs. protests in the USA in the past.

You asked:

"Did you or anyone else seriously feel like you could be killed, seized and held without charges, held without legal counsel, or really anything else bad happen other than perhaps a token arrest and release later that day?"

I said "YES." In fact, it turned out quite a few received much more "than perhaps a token arrest and release later that day."




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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 05:36 PM   #43
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Actually I had no interest in that aspect of the discussion at all. The origins of this dialog had to do with bombing innocent people and some derivative of innocent people dying if we hadnt gone to war. My point was that the innocent people we bomb are probably more innocent than the people who died because they chose to screw with the local dictator...in other words they took action in a scenario where taking action probably meant death. They chose. It seemed your point was that people who protested here were in similar danger when making the same choice. I dont think thats the case, now or in the past.

Martha, I was going to throw in the Kent State thing, but figured there was no benefit. However, if you read any witness transcripts of the students who protested, they had no expectation that they would be shot or even shot at, or that they were in any serious physical danger.

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Originally Posted by Cool Dood
most of the Iraqis whom Saddam threw into his rape rooms, or executed, or even just put in jail, were normal people who had done no wrong.
Thats where we're going to disagree. For starters, nobody here has any idea who Hussein did what to, or why, but I find it hard to believe that he and his guys just ran around torturing and killing people who had done nothing wrong. He certainly had a plentiful source of people challenging him and his regime to choose from without dipping into somebody that was minding his own business.

It sounds more like the demonization process that a nation goes through before going to war.

Lastly, this is not to say that I support Hussein and/or anything he did, that I think we do a great job of supporting peoples rights to protest in this country now or at any time in the past, or any other bits and pieces that can be pulled from context and quibbled with.

What I'm saying, short and simple: We killed people, and are continuing to kill people, who have no dog in this fight and who just as likely would have existed unmolested had we not taken action. We will discover that the style of government operated by the former regime is what it takes to maintain peace and order in that country. We will flop in that mudhole for another 3-5 years and then eventually have to back off, simply because we wont be able to do what it takes to establish order and 'democracy'.

Then the real fun will begin.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 05:57 PM   #44
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

I feel like this discussion is veering to the point where it's fruitless, but in the meantime: I have no difficulty in believing that a guy who tortured his friggin' soccer team for not winning games would go out of his way to be nasty to completely innocent people, regardless of what the mood is in the ante-bellum USA. I believe that the guy, his sons, and a lot of people around him were seriously deranged thugs, and I haven't followed all the war-mongering brouhaha, the politics of the US media, etc.

Again, it sounds to me like we won't get much farther than we have in terms of moving the discussion along, but I personally have no trouble reconciling extremely violent, unjust behavior with Saddam Hussein, and it seems to me misguided to attribute it to American demonization of him.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 06:05 PM   #45
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Hey, I didnt say he was a swell guy.

There is that whole thing where we gave him the keys to the city of detroit for his charitable donations...
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 06:16 PM   #46
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Yeah, but Detroit is rougher than the Sunni Triangle so I guess that fits...
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 06:22 PM   #47
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

True, true.

Interesting article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 06:46 PM   #48
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

It says these are claims by scientists. Didn't we establish on another thread that they don't know what they're talking about?

Those lives aren't important. We are on the verge of crossing from patriotism to nationalism in this country.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-10-2006, 07:34 PM   #49
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Your endorcement of the angonizing deaths of children, whether at the hands of Hussein or as collateral victims of American bombings, is bewildering and* something I can't agree with.

BTW, as stated clearly, I've been discussing your assertion that US government tolerance of US dissidents and US demonstrations has lessened lately;* ie., US tolerance was greater earlier, such as in the 60's and there is less tolerance now.* You said, in reference to my attendance at the Grant Park Demonstrations during the 1968 Democratic National Convention: "Did you or anyone else seriously feel like you could be killed, seized and held without charges, held without legal counsel, or really anything else bad happen other than perhaps a token arrest and release later that day?"* I said that YES we (at least DW and I) did feel that more than token arrests and releases could happen. And in fact more than token arrests and releases did happen. Much more.* And that's the fact.* I made no reference to Iraq in any way.

My position is that there was inadequate US government tolerance towards US dissidents then and there is inadequate US government tolerance towards US dissidents now.

So, as already stated, this discussion is going nowhere and that's all I have to say about that.

Thanks Joe Biden.* You're hitting a four bagger on this one!

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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 12:29 AM   #50
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

When will politicians understand that sometimes they simply should not open their mouths? Why do they NEED to say SOMETHING? When in this situation, maybe they should ask a question or two instead.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 01:09 PM   #51
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

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Originally Posted by youbet
Your endorcement of the angonizing deaths of children, whether at the hands of Hussein or as collateral victims of American bombings, is bewildering and something I can't agree with.
I made no such endorsement. Not once. Not ever.

You have taken unrelated bits and pieces of what I said and combined them to create opinions that I do not have and inferred endorsements I did not and would not make.

Quote:
BTW, as stated clearly, I've been discussing your assertion that US government tolerance of US dissidents and US demonstrations has lessened lately; ie., US tolerance was greater earlier, such as in the 60's and there is less tolerance now.
I said absolutely nothing about the 60's until you made it a part of the discussion and it had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Quote:
My position is that there was inadequate US government tolerance towards US dissidents then and there is inadequate US government tolerance towards US dissidents now.
I completely agree with you. But again, that had nothing to do with what we were discussing.

I'd repeat my position again:

- I think we've killed a lot of innocent people in this war. Thats what happens during a war. I dont like it.
- I think we had a lot to do with many of the people Hussein killed as we gave him weapons and allowed him to continue to operate as the leader of Iraq when we could have taken him out 15 years ago. I dont like it.
- I think the sanctions/embargos and the UN malarky around the oil for food program resulted in a lot of deaths and suffering. I dont like that. Unfortunately the US was behind a lot of this or a lot of it was a result of what we did and didnt do. I dont like that.
- I think that at least some of the people he killed asked for it by protesting or attacking his government. I am not saying the reasons why they protested or attacked were good or bad.
- I am less sympathetic to someone who dies as a result of doing something that carries the expectation of death than someone who was just living their miserable life.

And as the side bars you took us down:
- I think almost any protester in the US had very little to fear with regards to physical attack, rape and murder compared to many other countries, specifically Iraq.
- I think that in the last few years protests have been muted by the government by shipping people off to 'protest areas' and by not allowing them to protest at all.
- I think that more people have been killed walking their doggies than killed by the US government for protesting.
- I dont disagree that protesting in the 1960's may have been more dangerous than it is today, but I do disagree that the average joe protester walking around carrying a sign was at any significant risk of life and limb.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 02:06 PM   #52
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

I know you post a lot and I wouldn't expect you to equally prioritize every detail of everything you say.* It was this statement you made that I picked up on and that caused me to point out that US government curbs on demonstrations are not just a recent thing.* I used the Grant Park Demonstrations during the Democratic National Convention as an example because I was there and have first hand knowledge.* Obviously, the Civil Rights Demonstrations during the 60's would also be an example.* I was not comparing anything to Iraq.* I was commenting on your statement that US curbs on demonstrations are something happening lately or recently.


"In the US, we allow protesting, although lately its only to a degree and where we allow you to protest, preferrably miles away where you'll largely go unnoticed.* And usually you dont have to worry about the consequences of your protesting, except recently..."
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 02:27 PM   #53
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Let me clarify that again.

I'm talking about a 3-5 year time span, not a 50 year one.

Specifically indicative that the current administration is violating our civil rights by putting pressure on protesters.

But I can see how easy it is to take a non specific comment and think it applies to something that happened in the prior century. Especially when nothing else we had talked about involved anything longer than a decade or so, and was primarily about the last handful of years.

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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 02:42 PM   #54
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Let me clarify that again.
Yes! Please do!
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 03:03 PM   #55
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Let me clarify that again.

I'm talking about a 3-5 year time span, not a 50 year one.

Specifically indicative that the current administration is violating our civil rights by putting pressure on protesters.

But I can see how easy it is to take a non specific comment and think it applies to something that happened in the prior century.* *Especially when nothing else we had talked about involved anything longer than a decade or so, and was primarily about the last handful of years.

Hey, I thought that the last century ended only 6 years ago. I read the sentence that Youbet quoted the same way as Youbet: The US has allowed protesting, except for recent restrictions. I wouldn't look back only three to five years to see what the history of protesting was in the US.

Unfortunately, minds were not meeting. But no need for anyone to blow it out of proportion.

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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 03:37 PM   #56
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

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Unfortunately, minds were not meeting. But no need for anyone to blow it out of proportion.
Thats easy for you to say. Nobody implied that you endorsed the killing of children...

Okey dokey, well if we're going to pull out a minor comment that wasnt really relevant to the discussion and take it for a walk even after I've tried to clarify it three times, I made that comment in regards to this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2107012

What I didnt understand was how we're talking about current events and then 'recently' turns into '40+ years ago'. Gosh, there are probably all sorts of things that happened around 800AD that we can dig into.

It is my understanding that in the last 3-5 years our rights to assemble and free speech have been infringed upon more frequently and to a greater degree than at any time previously, to the extent that simply trying to protest lawfully and peacefully is considered a crime.

Am I actually suggesting to a couple of liberals that the current administration is going overboard with suppression of our civil rights and they're arguing with me that such is not the case, that it was worse in the 1960's when democrats were in the white house?

Jeez Louise.

I'd really be indignant if not for the fact that absolutely none of this is relevant to the original post/topic...

Oh yeah...read my sig...
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 03:51 PM   #57
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Whateva.
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail
Old 07-11-2006, 03:53 PM   #58
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Re: Joe Biden--proud moment on the campaign trail

Ah yes, by uttering "whateva", I presume you are professing love and support for Gluteus Moronius, the 4th century dictator of Moldyarania, who regularly ate small children while uttering the word "whateva"

You rotten, rotten person...

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