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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 07:52 PM   #21
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

There are news reports that the Pakistanis may have used "coercive methods" to obtain information about the plot from a person they had arrested. According to press reports, this information was passed to the US and Britain. Some misguided souls in the US believe we should have refused to take this info, applying some type of exclusionary principle as we use in US domestic searches.

I'm not in favor of a police state, but let's have some common sense here. I'm glad today we aren't ruminating about the deats of thousands of folks as a result of a successful attack. Those of us concerned about civil liberties should be the ones most fervently hoping that the present laws and security measures (including surveillace) prevent another successful attack. If there's another big terrorist success in the US, the publc will demand steps that will make the Patriot Act look like something dreamed up by the ACLU.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 07:57 PM   #22
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by samclem
If there's another big terrorist successi n the US, the publc will demand steps that will make the Patriot Act look like something* and dreamed up by the ACLU.
You mean like the martial law imposed in Hawaii on 8 Dec 1941?

Oh, wait, no one actually solicited public input on that decision. And Hawaii wasn't technically a state, so that only discriminated against non-U.S. citizens. Well, except for the U.S. citizens of Japanese descent. And maybe a few others.

I'm all for "common sense", whether they're Pakistanis or Navy SEALs, but I can see why the ACLU is feeling a little frustrated...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 08:05 PM   #23
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Nords
I'm all for "common sense", whether they're Pakistanis or Navy SEALs, but I can see why the ACLU is feeling a little frustrated...

Didn't we violate his civil rights?* No due process.* No trial.* No jury.* No presumption of innocence.* The ACLU should file a lawsuit.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 08:27 PM   #24
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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You mean like the martial law imposed in Hawaii on 8 Dec 1941?
I sure hope not. In addition, I think many would agree that the internment of Japanese-Americans was the darkest spot in US domestic policy since abolition and the forced resettlement of native Americans.

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 08:36 PM   #25
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Didn't we violate his civil rights? No due process. No trial. No jury. No presumption of innocence. The ACLU should file a lawsuit.
As a private criminal citizen, sure.

As an armed combatant, "Sorry, game over!"

According to the UCMJ there haven't been any violations of this guy's civil liberties either.

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Originally Posted by samclem
I sure hope not.* In addition, I think many would agree that the internment of Japanese-Americans was the darkest spot in US domestic policy since abolition and the forced resettlement of native Americans.
Yep, but the more history books I read the more easily I understand how well-meaning people got from point A to point B. It looks bad now, but at the time that they were making the decisions...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 08:53 PM   #26
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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If that is what it takes to prevent 24 folks from blowing up 10 air planes (~4,000 people) where do I sign the petition to make it legal?
Huh. I'm not sure how you equate illegal wiretapping with prevention of the 9/11 attacks. The issue being challenged in court is about requiring wiretaps to be done legaly -- not stopped. No one wants the "bad guys" to get away. They just want to make sure we don't have a government of "bad guys" who abuse power and hurt some of the "good guys". No matter how much you are enamored with the current administration, you might want to insure due process. Remember, someone like Clinton will be in office again some day. If you open up the door for abuses by this administration, then it will be pretty hard to close it later on when you are in the minority.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 08:55 PM   #27
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by samclem
Getting blown up?

NSA is led by a (extremely competent, extremely aware of the legal restrictions on his authority) general officer.*
I saw what came out of the NSA in the confirmation hearings for General Michael Hayden to be CIA Director. *His contempt for Congress was manifestly evident in his persistent refusal to give straightforward and non-evasive answers to questions about the wiretapping program. *I am still amazed that the Senate let him get away with it. *If he is representative, I think we have much to fear from the NSA.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 09:23 PM   #28
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I think it's a given that we had enough intelligence to thwart the 9/11 attacks. What we apparently didn't have was coordination between agencies, and upper management who wouldn't or didn't use due diligence. For all the criticism of the Clinton administration's handling of Al Qaeda, the Bush team wasn't much, if any, better at it before 9/11...

I support our intelligence agencies, but I'd prefer to keep the judicial review process intact.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 09:51 PM   #29
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Getting blown up?

NSA is led by a (extremely competent, extremely aware of the legal restrictions on his authority) general officer. The organization has more civilian than military personnel by far. In general, you don't need to worry about the military personnel or the career professional intelligence civil service folks knowingly doing anything illegal. I'd be more concerned about appointees full of enthusiasm and no background concerning past abuses.

I'll bet a buck that this decision is overturned by the 6th circuit court.

I guess you do not get it.... I do not care how competent any of the people doing this are... I think is illegal... just because it is convenient to do does not change that... if we let some 'competent' people get away with this, then what happens when the incompetents are in charge We have already set the precedent that it was 'legal', so why stop it...

Remember Nixon... according to the theory that Bush is doing, what he did was legal... who is to say what is in the national interest besides our Commander and Chief

SO, I will take your bet... but I thought it was in the 5th.. but I could be wrong...

Also, if it is REALLY like what they say, then getting a warrant would be EASY... ergo, legal.. and they still get to do what they want..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 12:59 AM   #30
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by samclem
Those of us concerned about civil liberties should be the ones most fervently hoping that the present laws and security measures (including surveillace) prevent another successful attack.
The FISA includes a retroactive warrant provision. For the first 22 years, the court modified only .0153% (!) of the requests.

Why then would Bush et al want to ignore it? Because since 2001, the court has modified 3.2% of the requests. The court also outright REJECTED the first (six) warrants in its history.

This is not a court of whiny bleeding liberals. It is, however, a court of responsible and knowledgable judges that had no problem with the thousands of warrant requests presented to it previous to the Bush adminstration (including under Reagan and Bush the elder).

If alarm bells aren't ringing, you aren't paying attention.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 11:18 AM   #31
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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The FISA includes a retroactive warrant provision. For the first 22 years, the court modified only .0153% (!) of the requests.

Why then would Bush et al want to ignore it? Because since 2001, the court has modified 3.2% of the requests. The court also outright REJECTED the first (six) warrants in its history.

This is not a court of whiny bleeding liberals. It is, however, a court of responsible and knowledgable judges that had no problem with the thousands of warrant requests presented to it previous to the Bush adminstration (including under Reagan and Bush the elder).

If alarm bells aren't ringing, you aren't paying attention.
I do not even NEED to know if they are doing thing that would be rejected... I do not care if they would get 100% agreement from the courts.. the thing that were ringing bells in my head was 'warrentless wiretap'.. nuff said...

And I am SURPRISED that all of the republicans are agreeing just because it is Bush... were we not concerned with 'big government'... and the power it has

I kind of LIKE my checks and balances of government the constitution gave me... I don't want to give any of them up just for the convenience of the current crisis...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 11:26 AM   #32
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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I do not even NEED to know if they are doing thing that would be rejected... I do not care if they would get 100% agreement from the courts.. the thing that were ringing bells in my head was 'warrentless wiretap'.. nuff said...

And I am SURPRISED that all of the republicans are agreeing just because it is Bush... were we not concerned with 'big government'... and the power it has

I kind of LIKE my checks and balances of government the constitution gave me... I don't want to give any of them up just for the convenience of the current crisis...
You've made the list of Texans I wouldn't be embarrassed to meet.

Along with the Dixie Chicks and Kinky Friedman.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 01:44 PM   #33
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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You've made the list of Texans I wouldn't be embarrassed to meet.

Along with the Dixie Chicks and Kinky Friedman.
Don't get me wrong.... I was a big Bush supporter.. even when the Dixie Chicks were getting into trouble... but, he has not done what should have been done and is just making things worse.... so I am not a Dixie Chick fan..

Now Kinky!! I hope he wins!!! I am not and probably never will be a left leaning person... but the republicans have been worse in spending on crap that does not matter and (I can not believe I am saying this... ) cutting taxes even more... I do not have kids, but I do have nephews and nieces and do not think I should put my debt on their shoulders so I can live for today.. and running a continuous deficet is what we are doing.. I guess you could say I am more of a libertairian... but not that weird group....
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 02:26 PM   #34
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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You've made the list of Texans I wouldn't be embarrassed to meet.

Along with the Dixie Chicks and Kinky Friedman.
Texas Proud, you are in some very exclusive company since that list of “Texans I wouldn’t be embarrassed to meet” is only half as long as soup thinks it is. (Only 1/3 of the Dixie Chicks are Texan - Natalie Maines. The other two are from MA and PA.)

Out of a population of almost 21,000,000, just three of you made the list. You should be honored. (BTW, unless something changes the Kinkster is also getting my vote in November.)

Hey soup, I’d like to nominate two more as worthy of your consideration. They don’t really look like Texans, but I understand they do have some sort of say in whether or not you can fill up your car with gas…and how much it will cost you when you do.


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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 07:44 PM   #35
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I am more of a libertairian... but not that weird group....
Really? Hmmmm......
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 07:55 PM   #36
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

When the liberals disobey idiocy it is called civil dis-obedience and when bush does it is called near treason.

This is no big deal and they should continue to do the tapping they want until the appeals are heard and a Supreme decision is made.

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 08:55 PM   #37
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Everyone agrees that they should continue to do the tapping. It's just that many people feel like it should be done legally rather than illegally. Apparently, that's a hard concept for some people to grasp. This administration hasn't even offered an explanation for why they think they should be the first administration in history that should be allowed to do it illegally. They seem to simply think that they are above the law and are out to prove it.

It's hard for me to understand how anyone with even a simple minded understanding of the history of this country and the principles it is founded on would want to allow any administration to ignore the law.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 09:04 PM   #38
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Everyone agrees that they should continue to do the tapping.*
I don't think that that is true. What do you base that on?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 09:18 PM   #39
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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I don't think that that is true.* What do you base that on?
You're probably right. I'm sure there is someone who is against wiretapping on principle. But you'll have to find them yourself if you want to have an argument with them. That's not what this case is about and I haven't heard anyone on this forum or elsewhere say that is the issue.

A lot of times political spin doctors like Limbaugh or O'Reily like to paint those who oppose anything this administration says or does as charlatans. They do this by first misrepresenting the opposing position. That makes it is easy to put down. If you get to state your opponents idea in the dumbest way possible, then you can easily defeat them. It works as long as the audience is too simple minded to listen to anyone but you.

This case is not about letting "bad guys" plot against the country without fearing retaliation. It is about whether this administration is really above the law or whether they should follow the same legal procedures every other administration has had to follow.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 09:24 PM   #40
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

[quote author=sgeeeee link=topic=9165.msg166062#msg166062 .* It works as long as the audience is too simple minded to listen to anyone but you.

You must be referring to Daddy O. 8)
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