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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-18-2006, 11:58 PM   #41
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy O
When the liberals disobey idiocy it is called civil dis-obedience and when bush does it is called near treason.

This is no big deal and they should continue to do the tapping they want until the appeals are heard and a Supreme decision is made.

job
Never called it treason.. and I do not remember anybody here say that.. but I could be wrong..

But I DO think it is a crime... but nobody will pay any price for committing this crime (if in the end it is upheld as one)..

And like others have said... tap away with the bad guys.... I WANT them to do it... but, I also want a court of law to monitor them and make sure they are doing it WITHIN THE LAW...

As it is now, there is nothing stopping them from tapping YOUR phone and listening to every conversation you have... now, I have had one of my BIL tell me, so what, they can listen in... I am thinking WTF!!! For some false peace of mind, people are willing to throw away their rights..

I am sure someone can find the real quote... but there is one that is something like... if citizens are willing to give up their rights for security, soon they will have neither..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 12:18 AM   #42
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Quote:
And like others have said... tap away with the bad guys.... I WANT them to do it... but, I also want a court of law to monitor them and make sure they are doing it WITHIN THE LAW...

As it is now, there is nothing stopping them from tapping YOUR phone and listening to every conversation you have... now, I have had one of my BIL tell me, so what, they can listen in... I am thinking WTF!!! For some false peace of mind, people are willing to throw away their rights..
This is really the whole contention. Not what tyhey are doing. HOW they are doing it. Where is the oversight? Where are the boundries? Where is the accountability? Who is held responsible if something goes wrong? (ie An honest American is ruined for no good reason)

This "I can do whatever I want to whomever I want for any reason as long as I think it is or might be terrorist related" attitude is nothing but a naked power grab under cover of "terrorism". And they can use any data they get any way they want and nobody is allowed to ask questions because they are "protecting Americans". We can trust them, of course.

Joe Scarborough said on CSPAN at some event, believe it or not someday a Democrat will be in the White House again and you won't want him to have the kind of power you're letting george w bush get away with. I can't believe republicans are being so stupid.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 04:24 AM   #43
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Quote:
Originally Posted by razztazz

Joe Scarborough said on CSPAN at some* *event, believe it or not someday a Democrat will be in the White House again and you won't want him to have the kind of power you're letting george w bush get away with.* I can't believe republicans are being so stupid.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Nobody I know that opposes this has a problem with it because there is a republican administration doing it. Everyone I know that opposes it does so because it is illegal and a gross violation of the constitution. Unfortunately, there are too many morons in this country that will gladly sign away all liberties because some spin doctor says it is necessary to do so in the name of "security" or anti-terrorism. Look at how the spin doctors have already started using the word "treason" when this is a discussion about legality. People got their undies in a knot because Clinton "broke the law and lied under oath". Apparently this is a much bigger problem than blatantly disregarding the checks and balances in the constitution that ALL executive administration officials have sworn to protect. Apparently breaking that oath is acceptable because the spin doctors throw in the magic word "terrorism".* * :

Quote:
"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing.* It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
Quote:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)
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"It is weakness rather than wickedness which renders men unfit to be trusted with unlimited power." -- John Adams, 1788
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"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine
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"If we become a people who are willing to give up our money and our freedom in exchange for rhetoric and promises, then nothing can save us." -- Thomas Sowell
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"The trade-off between freedom and security, so often proposed so seductively, very often leads to the loss of both." -- Christopher Hitchens in the August, 2003 issue of Reason.
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"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 08:30 AM   #44
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Everyone agrees that they should continue to do the tapping.* It's just that many people feel like it should be done legally rather than illegally.*
And everyone here seems sufficiently qualified in Constitutional law to declare, unequivocally, that the surveillance program is illegal.* But the courts have held in previous cases that "the President [has] inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."
* If one end of the conversation is a suspected international terrorist, does this fall under "foreign intelligence surveillance?"* The Supreme Court will decide.


In the mean-time we need to think very hard about whether our current law enforcement infrastructure is up to the task at hand.* Our existing approach to preventing crime relies almost entirely on deterrence and the incarceration of those who can not be deterred (i.e. repeat offenders).* Unfortunately, suicidal mass murderers who don't expect to survive the commission of their crime can not be deterred through any earthly punishment society can meter out.* Incarceration is obviously of no use here either.

The only way to prevent suicidal mass murderers from achieving their aim is to stop them before they have committed a crime.* But the concept of apprehending, surveiling, searching, and incarcerating someone before they've committed a crime is anathema to our concept of rights.* Indeed the concept of "probable cause" may prove too high a standard where early action to disrupt terrorists is necessary to save thousands.* Clearly a balance between security and governmental restraint is needed.* But equally clear is the fact that certain changes need to be made so that subway, airplane and truck bombs don't become common occurrences.

But not everyone sees it that way.* There are those who see any infringement on any "right", real or imagined, as an unacceptable response to the threats we face.* Here in New York City, the ACLU brought a lawsuit trying to stop the NYPD from conducting random bag searches before people entered the subway system.* This, just days after the subway bombings in London.* The ACLU argued that peoples rights against unreasonable searches and seizures were violated by the bag searches.* As if people have a right to use the subway.* Thankfully the courts sided with the NYPD and did not endorse the ACLU's expansion of presumed "rights" to the use of public transportation.* Those of us who commute on the subways everyday are safer for it.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 08:55 AM   #45
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
The only way to prevent suicidal mass murderers from achieving their aim is to stop them before they have committed a crime.
I saw that movie... That Scientologist guy, right?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 08:59 AM   #46
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by alphabet soup
You've made the list of Texans I wouldn't be embarrassed to meet.
I concur.

Actually, I lived in Texas for about six months when I was around 2 years old. Does that qualify me as Texan?

In the vein of Trivial Pursuit, as far as I know there are four states which were independent countries before becoming states of the US, and I have lived in all of them. I wonder if that influenced my world view at all...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 09:44 AM   #47
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I will address two of your statements... and leave the rest for other...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
And everyone here seems sufficiently qualified in Constitutional law to declare, unequivocally, that the surveillance program is illegal. But the courts have held in previous cases that "the President [has] inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."
If one end of the conversation is a suspected international terrorist, does this fall under "foreign intelligence surveillance?" The Supreme Court will decide.
Two issues... the first is are we knowledgeable in constitutional law.. the answer of course is NO... even contitutional lawyers are on both sides... but most of the ones defending it are in the presidents corner... and you are right... in the end the Supreme Court will decide... and that decision could be that they just leave the lower court ruling to stand (or the appeals court if they rule).. but, it does not pass the smell test to me..

And about the decision.. I do not see anything in the constitution or the bill of rights protecting them from unwarrented search or seizure... but guess what... WE HAVE IT... let's not throw it away..


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go

But not everyone sees it that way. There are those who see any infringement on any "right", real or imagined, as an unacceptable response to the threats we face. Here in New York City, the ACLU brought a lawsuit trying to stop the NYPD from conducting random bag searches before people entered the subway system. This, just days after the subway bombings in London. The ACLU argued that peoples rights against unreasonable searches and seizures were violated by the bag searches. As if people have a right to use the subway. Thankfully the courts sided with the NYPD and did not endorse the ACLU's expansion of presumed "rights" to the use of public transportation. Those of us who commute on the subways everyday are safer for it.
Yes, I do not want any of my real rights or imagined rights to be swept under the rug for convenience of the current gvmt... because we will not get them back...

I am mixed on this one... but in the end I came to a middle ground.. the police are doing a quick check, not looking at everything you have.. to make sure you do not have a bomb.. it is not intrusive... and if you as a citizen did NOT want them to look, you SHOULD have the right to turn around and walk away without showing them you bag.. maybe a strange way of thinking... but to me they are looking to see if you have something in order to board the train.. if you decided you do not want to board, then their reasoning to search has gone away... but I bet they look anyhow..

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 09:50 AM   #48
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Cute & Fuzzy Bpp
I concur.

Actually, I lived in Texas for about six months when I was around 2 years old. Does that qualify me as Texan?

In the vein of Trivial Pursuit, as far as I know there are four states which were independent countries before becoming states of the US, and I have lived in all of them. I wonder if that influenced my world view at all...

Hmmmmm... that seems a bit strange.. as we are taught that it was only Texas..

I do know that Texas was brought into the USA by treaty and no other state was...

so unless the others were part of the original 13.....
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 09:55 AM   #49
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Hmmmmm... that seems a bit strange..* as we are taught that it was only Texas..
I do know that Texas was brought into the USA by treaty and no other state was...
so unless the others were part of the original 13.....
You should see what they teach us in Hawaii about Texas!

I'm not sure how Hawaii's "annexation" compares to a treaty. Sanford Dole et al seemed to think it was a good idea at the time but Hawaii's surviving royalty felt otherwise...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 09:59 AM   #50
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
And everyone here seems sufficiently qualified in Constitutional law to declare, unequivocally, that the surveillance program is illegal.*


Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times 8/19/06
Even legal experts who agreed with a federal judge's conclusion on Thursday that a NSA surveillance program is unlawful were distancing themselves from the decisionís reasoning and rhetoric yesterday. *

They said the opinion overlooked important precedents, failed to engage the government's major arguments, used circular reasoning, substituted passion for analysis and did note even offer the best reasons for its own conclusions.

It'd be nice if we could trust the courts to offer objective legal opinions instead of politically partisan ones on matters of life and death importance. *No one should feel happy or vindicated with the recent ruling.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 10:13 AM   #51
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
.* It works as long as the audience is too simple minded to listen to anyone but you.

You must be referring to Daddy O.* *
Thats fine, another poster called everyone who likes bush to be stupid the other day. Simple minded and Stupid. Seems to be the nature of the debate nowadays. Not much debate, just insult. I hope they continue doing what they are doing until those that want to harm all us and our system are beaten down or eliminated.

job
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 10:35 AM   #52
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Daddy O

While I don't personally 100% agree with your position, I do agree that name calling like this is inappropriate and sad.

A poster on another thread made the comment that what he liked about the current administration was their uncanny ability to make liberals uncontrollably mad. That sure seems to be the case. Folks, who otherwise seem like thoughtful, positive contributors, "lose it" in political discussions these days. Don't take it personally, they just can't help it.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:04 AM   #53
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

No big deal. It is just a board with flippant comments and responses.

There was another poster the other day that said it would take 50 or 75 years for historians to objectively evaluate bush's actions and the results. I agree with that 100%. I do not know it the tapping is the perfect solution or if the war was a great decision. It will take many years for this to play out and determine th ewinners and losers. Many may feel we did not have to play their game, but I believe we did.

The dice are still rolling and it will be awhile to see what they come up as.

job
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:13 AM   #54
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Sorry, DaddyO. As a refugee from the Morningstar Politics board, my first reaction is to rip the other guy's face off first.

Realize now that this forum is for a more civil discourse.

In that vein, let me ask you this. Since, by virtually any measure, Bush has failed in every attempt he's made, both domestically and overseas, to implement his New American Project, or whatever, while alienating the rest of the planet, and, at the same time, continually eroding our civil liberties, by what criteria do you still support him?

P.S. Telling me he's a fine Christian doesn't count.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:25 AM   #55
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by alphabet soup
Since, by virtually any measure, Bush has failed in every attempt he's made, both domestically and overseas, to implement his New American Project, or whatever, while alienating the rest of the planet, and, at the same time, continually eroding our civil liberties, by what criteria do you still support him?
5+ years without a successful terrorist attack in the US should be worth something.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:45 AM   #56
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
5+ years without a successful terrorist attack in the US should be worth something.
Dude, it hasn't been five years yet.

In fact I bet a heckuva lot of civil liberties will be violated between now and 11 Sep...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:51 AM   #57
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
5+ years without a successful terrorist attack in the US should be worth something.
By that measure, Herbert Hoover did a great job, but he doesn't make my top ten.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 12:34 PM   #58
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

It's funny how "what goes around, comes around."* In the 60's, for example, it was the Democrats under Johnson that were busy violating civil liberties as they cracked down on Viet Nam War dissidents and ramped up the draft and military spending.* Now it's Republicans under Bush thinking they're correct to use the tactics they're using to try to track down terrorists.* But for this old timer, it's all starting to look the same.* Hence, I don't trust anybody very much anymore.

Unwavering party loyalists, be they Democrats or Republicans, seem mighty naive from my point of view.* I think it pays to remain independent and support candidates on an individual basis.

I know many on this board will disagree. Please keep your replies civil.........
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 01:14 PM   #59
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

As a fellow oldtimer, I remember those days well. And I agree with your assessment.

By the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an anti-fascist. So that makes me anti-Republican by default.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 01:20 PM   #60
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Nords
Dude, it hasn't been five years yet.*

In fact I bet a heckuva lot of civil liberties will be violated between now and 11 Sep...
You are correct . . . math snafu on my part.* ~5 years, is still valid.

I personally don't feel my civil rights are any more violated by the possibility that my international phone conversations with suspected terrorists might be monitored then I do knowing my cash transactions above $10k will be monitored.* And I'm more than willing to have my bag searched as a requirement to board a train just as I'm willing to submit to airport screening if I want to board an airplane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet soup
By that measure, Herbert Hoover did a great job, but he doesn't make my top ten.
I don't believe international terrorism targeting the US and its interests was a major issue in 1930.


Of all the wisdom that is espoused here on the subject (most of which can be categorized as 'I don't like Bush'), I'm still waiting for someone to address this little problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
The only way to prevent suicidal mass murderers from achieving their aim is to stop them before they have committed a crime.
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