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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 01:46 PM   #61
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Nords
You should see what they teach us in Hawaii about Texas!

I'm not sure how Hawaii's "annexation" compares to a treaty. Sanford Dole et al seemed to think it was a good idea at the time but Hawaii's surviving royalty felt otherwise...
Actually... it would be interesting... I always wonder what is taught about the various states about themselves and others.. we have a Texas history and an American history... so Hawaii is lumped with the other 49 for us..

I said about the treaty because all other states I know of were 'annexed'.. or whatever word you might want to say.. Texas was a treaty between the two countries.. it spelled out what the US got and what Texas got.. this included the assets of the state and the debts, armies (I believe navies).. all other states were just taken (annexed) by the Congress.. that is except for the first 13...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 01:52 PM   #62
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
5+ years without a successful terrorist attack in the US should be worth something.
Clinton went over 5 years without a successful Islamofascist terrorist attack in the US. If that's your only criteria, did you support him?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:04 PM   #63
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by eridanus
Clinton went over 5 years without a successful Islamofascist terrorist attack in the US. If that's your only criteria, did you support him?
Did he? I can't remember the date of the successful terrorist attack (via truck bomb) on the WTC during his reign? Was that attack early enough that he had five no-attack years afterward?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:09 PM   #64
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
Clinton went over 5 years without a successful Islamofascist terrorist attack in the US. If that's your only criteria, did you support him?
Same answer as the one provided alphabet soup.

From 1990-2000 there were 60 terrorist attacks world wide. *From 2001-2006 there were 140 (subject to check based on a lazy quick count). *The attacks specifically directed against western targets from Islamists is up significantly. *

I'm also not sure what policies were put in place during the 1990's that better protected us.* In fact, wasn't it Clinton's Deputy Attorney General Goerlick who is responsible for erecting the wall between the CIA and the FBI that prevented the agencies from sharing intelligence (based in large part on concerns over protecting "Civil Rights").*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute & Fuzzy HFWR
I think it's a given that we had enough intelligence to thwart the 9/11 attacks. What we apparently didn't have was coordination between agencies
In any event it seems a bit disingenuous to blame Bush for going too far in "the war on terrorism" and simultaneously giving him no credit for the absence of any domestic attacks.* I guess the prevailing attitude here is that if only we just did nothing, the whole problem would go away.

Still waiting for the informed members here to opine on how we might better protect ourselves . . . head in the sand, maybe?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:12 PM   #65
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by youbet
Did he?* I can't remember the date of the successful terrorist attack (via truck bomb) on the WTC during his reign?* Was that attack early enough that he had five no-attack years afterward?
WTC I - Feb 26, 2003 - so yes more than 5 years.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:30 PM   #66
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Oh yeah, it was more than five years.* I goggled up the following:

Previous Bombing


In 1993 terrorists drove a truck packed with 1,100 lbs of explosives into the basement parking garage at the World Trade Center. Despite the size of the blastóit left a crater 22 ft wide and five stories deepóonly six people were killed and 1,000 injured. The towers were repaired, cleaned, and reopened in less than a month.


Thank goodness that the six deaths and one thousand injuries weren't higher numbers that time!* Imagine how history would have been different if that attack had been more damaging, such as if the truck had been parked at a more effective location under the building and the building had collapsed.

The relative ease and frequency of these attacks actually makes me surprised that we haven't had more of them.* It's hard for me to be optimistic in this regard.*
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:34 PM   #67
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
And everyone here seems sufficiently qualified in Constitutional law to declare, unequivocally, that the surveillance program is illegal. But the courts have held in previous cases that "the President [has] inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance."
If one end of the conversation is a suspected international terrorist, does this fall under "foreign intelligence surveillance?" The Supreme Court will decide.
Eh? That statement was in relation to the Truong case, which was decided in 1980:

"We reiterate that Truong dealt with a pre-FISA surveillance based on the Presidentís constitutional responsibility to conduct the foreign affairs of the United States. 629 F.2d at 914."

The Truong case had nothing to do with FISA:

"[A]nother judge in the same district had held that the Truong analysis did not govern FISA cases, since a FISA order was a warrant that met Fourth Amendment standards. United States v. Falvey"


This Review was to decide:

"The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the Presidentís power by providing a
49 mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the
governmentís contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable."


The FISA Court had restricted a warrant request. The government appealed to the FISC Court of Review. The government was arguing that FISA searches are sufficient to meet 4th amendment requirements.

"The government, recognizing the Fourth Amendmentís shadow effect on the FISA courtís opinion, has affirmatively argued that FISA is constitutional."


The Review in no way invalidates the FISA.

The question remains: Why is the White House ignoring FISA requirements?

Indeed, the Supremes will decide.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 02:35 PM   #68
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Daddy O
Thats fine, another poster called everyone who likes bush to be stupid the other day.* Simple minded and Stupid.* Seems to be the nature of the debate nowadays.* Not much debate, just insult.* I hope they continue doing what they are doing until those that want to harm all us and our system are beaten down or eliminated.

job
You assign a quote to me that came from another poster's post. *I also said nothing about Bush or people who support him. *I did make a comment about people who get their news information only from spin doctor idealogues. *Getting news from only one source is . . . well, simple minded. * That applies whether the person who does this is Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative. *The fact that you applied this to yourself and to Bush supporters says more about you than about me.

So, you misquote me and accuse me of stances I never even implied. *That seems unethical to me. *You should appologize. *


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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 05:25 PM   #69
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by eridanus

The question remains: Why is the White House ignoring FISA requirements?
Let me run a hypothetical by you. Say a laptop or cell phone is recovered by the CIA in Pakistan which is believed to be owned by someone associated with terrorists. If that device has US phone numbers in it, will FISA allow wire taps on those numbers based on that information alone? I think the answer is no. But is that the right answer?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 05:46 PM   #70
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Hmmmmm... that seems a bit strange.. as we are taught that it was only Texas..
Nope.

Quote:
I do know that Texas was brought into the USA by treaty and no other state was...
That may be.

Quote:
so unless the others were part of the original 13.....
Nope.

[Fixed formatting.]
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 06:07 PM   #71
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Let me run a hypothetical by you.* Say a laptop or cell phone is recovered by the CIA in Pakistan which is believed to be owned by someone associated with terrorists.* If that device has US phone numbers in it, will FISA allow wire taps on those numbers based on that information alone?* I think the answer is no.* But is that the right answer?
You seem to be having a difficult time understanding the point, 3 years. Clearly, the details of the situation matter, but wiretaps are almost certainly allowable under the circumstances you mentioned. Further, in such circumstances the taps can even be put in place for a period of a day or two (I forget the exact timeframe) prior to actually getting the legal permission. The law simply requires that the administration does go through a legal procedure as a check on the process. In most cases, the taps take longer to implement than the legal procedure to gain approval. At least that was true several years ago.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 06:24 PM   #72
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
but wiretaps are almost certainly allowable under the circumstances you mentioned.*
I'm not sure the situation I described would meet the "probable cause" standard.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 06:43 PM   #73
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
I'm not sure the situation I described would meet the "probable cause" standard.
As far as I know, this administration has not claimed that the burden of proof for "probable cause" is too great. No one I've heard on either side of the issue has been concerned about this. But if there were a "probable cause" threshold issue, isn't that exactly the case that we should hope would be reviewed?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 07:38 PM   #74
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Cute & Fuzzy Bpp
I concur.

In the vein of Trivial Pursuit, as far as I know there are four states which were independent countries before becoming states of the US, and I have lived in all of them.* I wonder if that influenced my world view at all...
Hawaii and Texas have been mentioned by other posters. The remaining two are Vermont and California.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 08:57 PM   #75
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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As far as I know, this administration has not claimed that the burden of proof for "probable cause" is too great.* No one I've heard on either side of the issue has been concerned about this.*
Really?

Consider the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the French Moroccan who came to the FBI's attention before Sept. 11 because he had asked a Minnesota flight school for lessons on how to steer an airliner, but not on how to take off or land. Even with this report, and with information from French intelligence that Moussaoui had been associating with Chechen rebels, the Justice Department decided there was not sufficient evidence to get a FISA warrant to allow the inspection of his computer files.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-19-2006, 11:58 PM   #76
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I think most people will say that the level has been lowered a bit on something like this..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 12:07 AM   #77
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Gumby
Hawaii and Texas have been mentioned by other posters. The remaining two are Vermont and California.
Hmmm... from Wikipedia...

During the outset of the Mexican-American War (1846-1848), in the town of Sonoma forty U.S. settlers revolted and established the California Republic, an independent republic, June 14, 1846. This short lived independent republic was annexed by the United States on July 9, 1846. The Mexican officials fled without a fight.


Now, I would not say a country is formed by forty people that did not even survive a month.. maybe someone else will....

We have some fruitcakes in Texas that have suceeded from the US.. out in west Texas where the police just kind of let them do their thing as long as they don't bother people.. and they lasted more than a month... does this mean we had another country inside Texas?? NO..

Also, did Mexico recognize that they no longer were the sovern of the land If not, then it is not a separate country...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 01:41 AM   #78
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

This gets back to the point I was making about getting all your news from spin doctor idealogues. William Kristol is the lap dog of W and Karl Rove. You should definately place him in the same bed with Limbaugh and O'Reiley. In this piece, Kristol offers this administration an excuse for their failure to seek a wiretap prior to 9/11. Notice that the courts did not deny them the right to tap. This administration's justice department simply did not seek permission.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 06:49 AM   #79
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Well, it turns out that there can be a cost for approaching the FISA court, as the FBI learned:

(This is from a Newsmax report of a NY Times story. No, didn't go back to the Times to research the original source."
******************
"In a May 2002 report the Times noted: "Two days later, F.B.I. agents in Minnesota asked Washington to obtain a special warrant to search his laptop computer."

However, there was a problem. The paper explained:
"Recent interviews of intelligence officials by The New York Times suggest that the Bureau had a reason for growing cautious about applying to a secret national security court for special search warrants that might have supplied critical information."

"The F.B.I.," officials told the Times, "had become wary after a well-regarded supervisor was disciplined because the [FISA] court complained that he had submitted improper information on applications."

The secret court went so far as to discipline Michael Resnick, the F.B.I. supervisor in charge of coordinating terrorist surveillance operations, saying they would no longer accept warrant applications from him.

Intelligence officials told the Times that the FISA Court's decision to reprimand Resnick, who had been a rising star in the FBI, "resulted in making the Bureau far less aggressive in seeking information on terrorists."

"Other officials," the paper said, complained that the FISA Court's actions against Resnick "prompted Bureau officials to adopt a play-it-safe approach that meant submitting fewer applications and declining to submit any that could be questioned."

Sen. Charles Grassley is among those who think that the FBI might have been able to stop the 9/11 attacks if the FISA Court hadn't discouraged the Bureau from aggressively pursuing a warrant in the Moussaoui case."
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 07:06 AM   #80
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by samclem

"The F.B.I.," officials told the Times, "had become wary after a well-regarded supervisor was disciplined because the [FISA] court complained that he had submitted improper information on applications."

The secret court went so far as to discipline Michael Resnick, the F.B.I. supervisor in charge of coordinating terrorist surveillance operations, saying they would no longer accept warrant applications from him.
So, let's see if I am getting this right...

A respected FBI agent LIED to a secret court that gave out warrants like candy (remember, there were only a small percentage refused)... the court decided that the person might lie again so they said they would not accept warrants from him, so a whole agency said 'screw it'... we are not going to even try for a warrant...

I would not place the blame on the court for that one... I would place it on Resnick who LIED in the first place...

And we do not know if he had done something like this before, so the court had a history on him...

AND, does this not say in a LOUD VOICE that we can not trust the people who are saying 'trust us', we are only listening to terrorist calls They even lied to a court!!!
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