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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 07:45 AM   #81
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud

We have some fruitcakes in Texas that have suceeded from the US..
TP, those nutjobs attempted to secede, but they didn't succeed...

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 07:59 AM   #82
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Gumby
Hawaii and Texas have been mentioned by other posters. The remaining two are Vermont and California.
Gumby wins.

I guess California's claim may be a bit shakier than I remembered hearing about, but the others are solid. Seems like Texan textbooks could stand some revision.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 08:48 AM   #83
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
This gets back to the point I was making about getting all your news from spin doctor idealogues.* William Kristol is the lap dog of W and Karl Rove.* You should definately place him in the same bed with Limbaugh and O'Reiley.* In this piece, Kristol offers this administration an excuse for their failure to seek a wiretap prior to 9/11.* Notice that the courts did not deny them the right to tap.* This administration's justice department simply did not seek permission.*
1) The article was not intended to be a definitive source on the matter, but rather a response to your claim that "neither side was raising probable cause an issue."* Clearly that is not true.

2) And although you summarily dismiss the source, you don't even attempt to deal with the substance.* Do we want the government to have the ability to monitor the international communications of these people?

3) The Supreme Court will eventually rule whether such activities fall under the "President's Constitutional authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance" or not.* If not, it seems wise to amend FISA to apply a "reasonable suspicion" standard for suspected terrorists (as is the case for foreign spies) rather than the higher "probable cause" standard currently imposed. After all, the objective is to identify these people before they commit mass homicide, not identify their remains afterward . . . right?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 11:18 AM   #84
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
1) The article was not intended to be a definitive source on the matter, but rather a response to your claim that "neither side was raising probable cause an issue."* Clearly that is not true.

2) And although you summarily dismiss the source, you don't even attempt to deal with the substance.* Do we want the government to have the ability to monitor the international communications of these people?

3) The Supreme Court will eventually rule whether such activities fall under the "President's Constitutional authority to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance" or not.* If not, it seems wise to amend FISA to apply a "reasonable suspicion" standard for suspected terrorists (as is the case for foreign spies) rather than the higher "probable cause" standard currently imposed.* After all, the objective is to identify these people before they commit mass homicide, not identify their remains afterward . . . right?
Your reasoning is incredibly faulty. You make an incredible leap of faith when you assume that if we don't provide this administration with the right to be above the law, then we will be unable to stop terrorism. There is no proof of that, no reason to believe it is true. In fact it is an absurd assumption.

I believe that if we do provide this administration with the right to be above the law then we have institutionalized terrorism.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 11:30 AM   #85
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

One thing that seems to be missing from this discussion is the different standards for warrants under basic criminal law and the FISA.

Under the Fourth Amendment, a search warrant must be based on probable cause to believe that a crime has been or is being committed. In contrast, surveillance under FISA is permitted based on a finding of probable cause that the surveillance target is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. It doesn't matter whether the target is suspected of engaging in criminal activity. However, if the target is a "U.S. person," there must be probable cause to believe that the U.S. person's activities may involve espionage or other similar conduct in violation of the criminal statutes of the United States. Nor may a U.S. person be determined to be an agent of a foreign power "solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/ramasastry/20021126.html
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 11:37 AM   #86
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Your reasoning is incredibly faulty.* You make an incredible leap of faith when you assume that if we don't provide this administration with the right to be above the law, then we will be unable to stop terrorism.* There is no proof of that, no reason to believe it is true.* In fact it is an absurd assumption.*

I believe that if we do provide this administration with the right to be above the law then we have institutionalized terrorism.*
For the third time . . . the Supreme Court will rule on whether the administration has acted within its Constitutional authority. *Because you don't get a vote, you may excuse me for not taking your assumption that the "administration is acting above the law" as some kind of proven fact. *I'm willing to wait for the experts on the subject to weight in rather than make the "leap" that you are making.

To your second point, I don't think it is an absurd assumption at all to say that the ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists will help prevent terrorist attacks. *You, however, are making the erroneous assumption that the "probable cause" standard is a trifling inconvenience when trying to monitor people whose first and only crime will be suicidal mass murder. *

You still haven't answered wether you think the government should be able to monitor these people - which is the more important question then whether GWB overstepped his authority (except of course if your primary purpose is to score political points).
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 12:03 PM   #87
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Cute & Fuzzy Bpp
Gumby wins.

I guess California's claim may be a bit shakier than I remembered hearing about, but the others are solid. Seems like Texan textbooks could stand some revision.
Hey... we are brainwashed from early on.... that will not change...

Another rumor is that we are the only state that can seceed from the union without gettting a vote from the US congress etc... they said it was in the treaty that was signed when Texas joined... I read the whole thing and it is not in there... so that one is false..

But, we do have the ability to split into 5 states... but why do something stupid like that?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 12:08 PM   #88
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
For the third time . . . the Supreme Court will rule on whether the administration has acted within its Constitutional authority. *Because you don't get a vote, you may excuse me for not taking your assumption that the "administration is acting above the law" as some kind of proven fact. *I'm willing to wait for the experts on the subject to weight in rather than make the "leap" that you are making.

To your second point, I don't think it is an absurd assumption at all to say that the ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists will help prevent terrorist attacks. *You, however, are making the erroneous assumption that the "probable cause" standard is a trifling inconvenience when trying to monitor people whose first and only crime will be suicidal mass murder. *

You still haven't answered wether you think the government should be able to monitor these people - which is the more important question then whether GWB overstepped his authority (except of course if your primary purpose is to score political points).
You're not reading or thinking, so I'll quit posting.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 12:08 PM   #89
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
For the third time . . . the Supreme Court will rule on whether the administration has acted within its Constitutional authority.
Just as soon as they get through all those pesky flag-burning issues...
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 02:43 PM   #90
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
A respected FBI agent LIED to a secret court that gave out warrants like candy (remember, there were only a small percentage refused)... the court decided that the person might lie again so they said they would not accept warrants from him, so a whole agency said 'screw it'... we are not going to even try for a warrant...
Before 2002, the FISA Court rejected exactly zero warrant requests. They modified an absurdly low percentage but rejected NONE.

It seems extremely unlikely that the FISA Court's actions could have "prevented 9/11."


(Is that phrase gaining the same notoriety as "It's for the children!"?)
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 03:19 PM   #91
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 03:43 PM   #92
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

The ACLU agreed to a stay until the 6th hears the appeal.

It's all fun and games when the guy listening in is on your side.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 05:49 PM   #93
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
But, we do have the ability to split into 5 states... but why do something stupid like that?
Get more Senate seats that way? Of course that would only be effective as long as all 5 new states kept voting as a bloc, which would probably last about 12 minutes.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-20-2006, 07:30 PM   #94
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Get more Senate seats that way? Of course that would only be effective as long as all 5 new states kept voting as a bloc, which would probably last about 12 minutes.
My point exactly.... and I am sure that the bloc voting of the house would go down also.. the little that it is a bloc...

But, I doubt if any sane person would even suggest it... political suicide.. more so than fixing SS.. we even got some nutcases that might shot the person..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 08:32 PM   #95
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 09:25 PM   #96
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

What's so f**king unbelievable is that 40% of the people in this country can't recognize fascism when it's staring them right in the face.

They can't ALL be Texans.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 09:37 PM   #97
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Originally Posted by alphabet soup
What's so f**king unbelievable is that 40% of the people in this country can't recognize fascism when it's staring them right in the face.

They can't ALL be Texans.
Thanks for the kind words and unbiased opinion, soup. Yes, just like people from California and Florida, all of us in Texas think exactly alike.

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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 09:46 PM   #98
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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The next day, however, a local newspaper reported that Bensman "said he would like to see the dam blown up and resents paying taxes to fix dam problems when it is barge companies that profit from the dam."

Workers at the corps' St. Louis office "took a dim view (of the article) and questioned if it was a potential threat," and a security manager forwarded the clipping to the FBI, said corps spokesman Alan Dooley.
Ok.* So the newspaper prints that this guy says he'd like to see the dam blown up.* Someone obviously thought it serious enough to forward to the FBI.* The FBI follows up by asking some questions . . . what's the problem??*

If the FBI did nothing and the dam was blown up everyone would be saying they should have questioned this guy.* But when they question the guy someone concludes its evidence of fascism . . . please.

Sounds more like FBI CYA then Big Brother to me.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 10:44 PM   #99
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I think the corps of engineers said that in oder to get rid of the dam, it would need to be blown up. This guy claims to have said only that they'd be better off without the dam. AS a well-known ecology-activist, he is typically against dams anyhow. Guess we can't speak our contrarian minds in public any more. And does the FBI think terrorists attend public meetings and identify themselves? : This is starting to remind me of the conformist 50s, where anyone expressing unpopular views was viewed with suspicion. Hmmm...isn't early retirement countercultural, even subversive?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-26-2006, 11:30 PM   #100
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Remember the Hummer dealers going up in smoke? They arrested the responsible "eco-terrorist":

http://tinyurl.com/eo2kf

But then realized that they got the wrong guy.

http://www.grist.org/news/daily/2005/11/16/5/index.html

"The FBI will issue a rare "letter of regret" and pay environmentalist Josh Connole $100,000 after mistakenly arresting him for domestic terrorism."

"His suspicious activities included living communally with fellow vegans, installing solar panels, protesting the Iraq war, and (horrors!) driving an electric car."

Yes, it's true. They got him for using solar panels and driving an electric car. He also was a vegan!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019329/site/newsweek/

'Agents placed the commune under surveillance and developed a political profile of the residents, discovering the owner of the house and his father "have posted statements on websites opposing the use of fossil fuels," one doc reads. Another says the owner had ties to a local chapter of Food Not Bombs, an "anarcho-vegan food distribution group."'


Hmm, are there "terrorists" among us right now? Nords has solar panels! Rich has a hybrid and even wrote that he likes it!
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