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Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:03 PM   #1
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Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program



I know it was discussed a lot back when.... and I was one that thought it was unconstitutional... and some asked if I would abide by the decision of the court... I said yes... so, if you thought it was 'legal' will you abide by the decision

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060817/...sdropping_dc_5
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:10 PM   #2
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Yes............that's why we have a legal system..............
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:23 PM   #3
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

"Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program"

How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:32 PM   #4
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?
That's an interesting question. I guess we will really find out how far the current admnistration is willing to trample the rule of law, won't we?

I cannot wait until the impeachment hearings start next year.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:36 PM   #5
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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That's an interesting question.* I guess we will really find out how far the current admnistration is willing to trample the rule of law, won't we?

I cannot wait until the impeachment hearings start next year.
Is Monica in town again?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:42 PM   #6
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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"Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program"

How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?
Agreed...

I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws... I guess they will have to go back to the old way..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:49 PM   #7
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

..
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:54 PM   #8
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Ultimately, an administration contemptuous of the rule of law can get away with not obeying the courts, particularly when they will not give security clearances to anyone who wants to check up on them.
Which is why it is high time for a Democratic Congress.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 02:56 PM   #9
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws... I guess they will have to go back to the old way..
Echelon has been around for years. Australia, England, Canada, and the US all play this game.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 03:14 PM   #10
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Which is why it is high time for a Democratic Congress.
Even that might not be enough. After all, to paraphrase Stalin's line about the Pope, how many divisions of troops do they command?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 03:35 PM   #11
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Even that might not be enough.* After all, to paraphrase Stalin's line about the Pope, how many divisions of troops do they command?
They don't need troops: they control the purse strings.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 03:46 PM   #12
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Bills passed by Congress, including spending bills, are not self-effectuating. People must do something to enforce the laws that are passed. Those people work in the executive branch.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 03:50 PM   #13
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Bills passed by Congress, including spending bills, are not self-effectuating.* People must do something to enforce the laws that are passed.* Those people work in the executive branch.
Hey, if a dictator decides to run roughshod over all our legal institutions, then its a dictatorship. Nothing civillian authorities can do. But then we will all know we are in a dictatorship, and hopefully act accordingly.

In the absence of a coup, one presumes that in a capitalist country like ours, nothing is going to happen if the bills aren't paid.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 04:00 PM   #14
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I think we are on the same side generally, but maybe with differing opinions on exactly how depraved the current administration is.

I generally don't like to ascribe to evil intent that which can be explained by incompetence or sloth, but it is getting difficult to conclude that these are people who can be expected to comply with the laws in good faith.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 04:03 PM   #15
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

Let's just say that I am expecting the worst and hoping that cooler heads prevail.* I know there are a lot of law & order minded people in the Treasury, military, GAO, etc. that are not likely to intentionally break laws just becase they are given orders to do so.

One also must remember how pathetically incompetent these clowns are. If we were going to turn into a dictatorship, you'd need someone who could pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel to pull it off. These guys aren't it.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 04:17 PM   #16
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

I would expect that virtually every military officer will remember his or her oath to "support and defend the Constitution" and act accordingly. So, no, I don't expect a military dictatorship.

It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians. I don't trust them to stop the wiretapping, no matter what a federal judge says. They believe they are "doing the Lord's work" so to speak.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 04:23 PM   #17
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians.* I don't trust them to stop the wiretapping, no matter what a federal judge says.* They believe they are "doing the Lord's work" so to speak.*
Maybe, but there are also a lot of civilians like Patrick Fitzgerald. I never met him, but I know the type. He and I went to the same high school, one which has about 50% of each graduating class eventually becoming attorneys, usually very good ones with a very well defined set of ethics. No doubt there are many others like him in gummint service in one fashion or another.

There might be transgressions or confrontations, but I think that the rule of law will win out in the end. If not, well, I like Canada and New Zealand, how about you?
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 05:28 PM   #18
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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If not, well, I like Canada and New Zealand, how about you?
NZ for me, the south island looks just like home. If it were only closer to the kids.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 07:32 PM   #19
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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. I guess they will have to go back to the old way..
Getting blown up?

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It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians.
NSA is led by a (extremely competent, extremely aware of the legal restrictions on his authority) general officer. The organization has more civilian than military personnel by far. In general, you don't need to worry about the military personnel or the career professional intelligence civil service folks knowingly doing anything illegal. I'd be more concerned about appointees full of enthusiasm and no background concerning past abuses.

I'll bet a buck that this decision is overturned by the 6th circuit court.
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program
Old 08-17-2006, 07:37 PM   #20
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Re: Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

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Agreed...

I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws...* I guess they will have to go back to the old way..
If that is what it takes to prevent 24 folks from blowing up 10 air planes (~4,000 people) where do I sign the petition to make it legal?
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