Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program

[Texas Proud]

I know it was discussed a lot back when.... and I was one that thought it was unconstitutional... and some asked if I would abide by the decision of the court... I said yes... so, if you thought it was 'legal' will you abide by the decision

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060817/pl_nm/security_eavesdropping_dc_5

 

[FinanceDude]

Yes............that's why we have a legal system..............

 

[Nords]

"Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program"

How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?

 

[brewer12345]

How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?

That's an interesting question. I guess we will really find out how far the current admnistration is willing to trample the rule of law, won't we?

I cannot wait until the impeachment hearings start next year.

 

[73ss454]

That's an interesting question.  I guess we will really find out how far the current admnistration is willing to trample the rule of law, won't we?

I cannot wait until the impeachment hearings start next year.

Is Monica in town again?

 

[Texas Proud]

"Judge orders halt to NSA wiretap program"

How the heck is he, or anyone else, going to know if/when they comply?!?

Agreed...

I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws... I guess they will have to go back to the old way..

 

[Gumby]

..

 

[brewer12345]

Ultimately, an administration contemptuous of the rule of law can get away with not obeying the courts, particularly when they will not give security clearances to anyone who wants to check up on them.

Which is why it is high time for a Democratic Congress.

 

[eridanus]

I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws... I guess they will have to go back to the old way..

Echelon has been around for years. Australia, England, Canada, and the US all play this game.

 

[Gumby]

Which is why it is high time for a Democratic Congress.

Even that might not be enough. After all, to paraphrase Stalin's line about the Pope, how many divisions of troops do they command?

 

[brewer12345]

Even that might not be enough.  After all, to paraphrase Stalin's line about the Pope, how many divisions of troops do they command?

They don't need troops: they control the purse strings.

 

[Gumby]

Bills passed by Congress, including spending bills, are not self-effectuating. People must do something to enforce the laws that are passed. Those people work in the executive branch.

 

[brewer12345]

Bills passed by Congress, including spending bills, are not self-effectuating.  People must do something to enforce the laws that are passed.  Those people work in the executive branch.

Hey, if a dictator decides to run roughshod over all our legal institutions, then its a dictatorship. Nothing civillian authorities can do. But then we will all know we are in a dictatorship, and hopefully act accordingly.

In the absence of a coup, one presumes that in a capitalist country like ours, nothing is going to happen if the bills aren't paid.

 

[Gumby]

I think we are on the same side generally, but maybe with differing opinions on exactly how depraved the current administration is.

I generally don't like to ascribe to evil intent that which can be explained by incompetence or sloth, but it is getting difficult to conclude that these are people who can be expected to comply with the laws in good faith.

 

[brewer12345]

Let's just say that I am expecting the worst and hoping that cooler heads prevail.  I know there are a lot of law & order minded people in the Treasury, military, GAO, etc. that are not likely to intentionally break laws just becase they are given orders to do so.

One also must remember how pathetically incompetent these clowns are. If we were going to turn into a dictatorship, you'd need someone who could pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel to pull it off. These guys aren't it.

 

[Gumby]

I would expect that virtually every military officer will remember his or her oath to "support and defend the Constitution" and act accordingly. So, no, I don't expect a military dictatorship.

It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians. I don't trust them to stop the wiretapping, no matter what a federal judge says. They believe they are "doing the Lord's work" so to speak.

 

[brewer12345]

It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians.  I don't trust them to stop the wiretapping, no matter what a federal judge says.  They believe they are "doing the Lord's work" so to speak. 

Maybe, but there are also a lot of civilians like Patrick Fitzgerald. I never met him, but I know the type. He and I went to the same high school, one which has about 50% of each graduating class eventually becoming attorneys, usually very good ones with a very well defined set of ethics. No doubt there are many others like him in gummint service in one fashion or another.

There might be transgressions or confrontations, but I think that the rule of law will win out in the end. If not, well, I like Canada and New Zealand, how about you?

 

[Brat]

If not, well, I like Canada and New Zealand, how about you?

NZ for me, the south island looks just like home. If it were only closer to the kids.

 

[samclem]

. I guess they will have to go back to the old way..

Getting blown up?

It is the civilians who concern me and, as far as I know, the people at the NSA are civilians.

NSA is led by a (extremely competent, extremely aware of the legal restrictions on his authority) general officer. The organization has more civilian than military personnel by far. In general, you don't need to worry about the military personnel or the career professional intelligence civil service folks knowingly doing anything illegal. I'd be more concerned about appointees full of enthusiasm and no background concerning past abuses.

I'll bet a buck that this decision is overturned by the 6th circuit court.

 

[Gone4Good]

Agreed...

I heard something interesting when they found the newest terrorists in England... there was someone 'high up' that said England used data collected by the US when it listened in on these folks so they did not break THEIR laws... and that the US would use information that the British had spying on us that we would not break OUR laws...  I guess they will have to go back to the old way..

If that is what it takes to prevent 24 folks from blowing up 10 air planes (~4,000 people) where do I sign the petition to make it legal?

 

[samclem]

There are news reports that the Pakistanis may have used "coercive methods" to obtain information about the plot from a person they had arrested. According to press reports, this information was passed to the US and Britain. Some misguided souls in the US believe we should have refused to take this info, applying some type of exclusionary principle as we use in US domestic searches.

I'm not in favor of a police state, but let's have some common sense here. I'm glad today we aren't ruminating about the deats of thousands of folks as a result of a successful attack. Those of us concerned about civil liberties should be the ones most fervently hoping that the present laws and security measures (including surveillace) prevent another successful attack. If there's another big terrorist success in the US, the publc will demand steps that will make the Patriot Act look like something dreamed up by the ACLU.

 

[Nords]

If there's another big terrorist successi n the US, the publc will demand steps that will make the Patriot Act look like something  and dreamed up by the ACLU.

You mean like the martial law imposed in Hawaii on 8 Dec 1941?

Oh, wait, no one actually solicited public input on that decision. And Hawaii wasn't technically a state, so that only discriminated against non-U.S. citizens. Well, except for the U.S. citizens of Japanese descent. And maybe a few others.

I'm all for "common sense", whether they're Pakistanis or Navy SEALs, but I can see why the ACLU is feeling a little frustrated...

 

[Gone4Good]

I'm all for "common sense", whether they're Pakistanis or Navy SEALs, but I can see why the ACLU is feeling a little frustrated...

Didn't we violate his civil rights?  No due process.  No trial.  No jury.  No presumption of innocence.  The ACLU should file a lawsuit.

 

[samclem]

You mean like the martial law imposed in Hawaii on 8 Dec 1941?

I sure hope not. In addition, I think many would agree that the internment of Japanese-Americans was the darkest spot in US domestic policy since abolition and the forced resettlement of native Americans.

 

[Nords]

Didn't we violate his civil rights? No due process. No trial. No jury. No presumption of innocence. The ACLU should file a lawsuit.

As a private criminal citizen, sure.

As an armed combatant, "Sorry, game over!"

According to the UCMJ there haven't been any violations of this guy's civil liberties either.

I sure hope not.  In addition, I think many would agree that the internment of Japanese-Americans was the darkest spot in US domestic policy since abolition and the forced resettlement of native Americans.

Yep, but the more history books I read the more easily I understand how well-meaning people got from point A to point B. It looks bad now, but at the time that they were making the decisions...