Kids & College

[bright eyed]

Didn't somebody point out that nobody pays list price at, say, Harvard? I think their endowment is large enough to give every student a free ride, but they have to maintain a high list price to reinforce their branding.

This is true and people have urged them to do it - but they won't. Other ivy's like Princeton guarantee financial support to whoever they admit...

 

[bright eyed]

I'm still noodling over this "kids that go to preschool do better in grade school, do better in high school, do better in college" thing. I'm not sure that the preschool is the causative factor or if parents that are interested and engaged in teaching their children, that also have smart children, put them in preschool whereas parents who arent engaged in their childs learning or realize their kids are nincompoops dont bother.

I think it's being marketed that way because there are so many kids who are coming to kindergarten unprepared..if your mom stays at home and has a masters degree, your kid is not likely missing out compared to other kids who attend preschool...also, in california for instance, they have pushed all the standards aggressively - so what you used to learn in 1st grade is now the standard for kindergarten...making it tougher for kids from disadv'd backgrounds...some come in reading, some have never seen a book ...which leads to huge disparities throughout their whole educational experience...

 

[Spanky]

The debate whether the school system or the quality of a school plays a major contribution to one's success will always continue. I tend to believe the major factors are culture, parent involvement and desire are far more important than natural abilities. When a kid wants to succeed, he/she will eventually prevail regardless of the environment.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Anyone here been denied a job opportunity or advancement that they were capable of handling, but didn't get it because they didn't have a college degree ?

 

[samclem]

Anyone here been denied a job opportunity or advancement that they were capable of handling, but didn't get it because they didn't have a college degree ?

Well, obviously many professional positions require a degree (MD, lawyer, etc). One (specialized) example would be military service. All* commissioned officers must have a college degree. Advanced degrees are a major and explicit factor in promotion for all members of the military.

*With certain minor exceptions that constitute a minscule %age at certain times.

 

[Empty Pockets]

I'm thinking more of the private sector. I realize several "professions" require a college degree, but many jobs in the private business world can be done by anyone capable of doing the job.

I was just wondering if anyone has trained their boss to do the job that they could have just as easily gotten but didn't.

I know the military requires a degree to become an officer, but it didn't always. I know a few veterans who had a knack for flying that became officers during WWII. I'm sure it changed shortly after.

 

[Spanky]

I'm thinking more of the private sector. I realize several "professions" require a college degree, but many jobs in the private business world can be done by anyone capable of doing the job.

I was just wondering if anyone has trained their boss to do the job that they could have just as easily gotten but didn't.

I know the military requires a degree to become an officer, but it didn't always. I know a few veterans who had a knack for flying that became officers during WWII. I'm sure it changed shortly after.

It's getting harder to a professional job without a degree as more companies require it. However, there are still a lot of companies that do not especially for people with a particular set of skills sought. It may be dependent on locations also. In the Twin Cities here in Minnesota, it's hard to land a professional job without one while it is much easier in the San Francisco Bay Area -- people without degrees are working as network, computer engineers, and IT managers.

The trend is disturbing. Soon we all need to have certifications, licenses, advanced degrees for even the simplest jobs. For example, you may need a certified garbage collector to land a job.

I am sure the certification or testing agencies will be happy as their business booms as demand for their services continues to rise.

 

[Nords]

I know the military requires a degree to become an officer, but it didn't always. I know a few veterans who had a knack for flying that became officers during WWII. I'm sure it changed shortly after.

It comes & goes, especially when pilots have a short life expectancy in combat. During the deepest depths of the Vietnam War I believe there was a program to put sergeants in the cockpits.

A old shipmate was commissioned in 1997 but didn't get sent to college until 2002. He used to joke that the Navy was hoping he'd get his degree on his own before they had to spend the money.

 

[USK Coastie]

I've known many "0s" that were dumber than a box of rocks. I always wondered why the Military in general was so class oriented about officers having to have a college degree. Having one is absoulty no indication of your leadership skills just that you've put in your time at an institute of higher learning partaring studying. Some of the best officers I served with were LDO's and Mustangs. Their BS quotient was gennerally several notches below the other officers.

Just so you understand I did not get my BA degree until after I retired from the CG as a CWO3.

BTW the Coast Guard will still allow OCS canadates with 2 yrs service, E-5, command recomendation, and a sucessful OCT. Upon commissioning they are usullly placed in shore billits at Marine Safety Offices then offered integration at the 4 yr mark.

 

[wabmester]

I'm still noodling over this "kids that go to preschool do better in grade school, do better in high school, do better in college" thing.

Stop your noodling and go observe some kids. Observe a group of 4-yos with no preschool. And a group at a typical daycare-style preschool. And contrast those kids with a group at a "good" preschool (your neighborhood moms should know which one that is).

You'll be blown away by the differences. Nobody can prove cause and effect (FWIW, Montessori preschools were originally designed for "special-needs" kids, not rich Einsteins), but why bet against good outcomes?

 

[Nords]

I've known many "0s" that were dumber than a box of rocks. I always wondered why the Military in general was so class oriented about officers having to have a college degree. Having one is absoulty no indication of your leadership skills just that you've put in your time at an institute of higher learning partaring studying. Some of the best officers I served with were LDO's and Mustangs. Their BS quotient was gennerally several notches below the other officers.

Yeah boy, everyone was partying hearty every evening at Nuclear Power School, from both the officer and the enlisted wings. And the fun lasted all night at the Nuclear Prototype Training Units!

When you're a 17-year-old know-it-all enlistee with a box of rocks no one's surprised. But when you're a 17-year-old know-it-all midshipman then it's a case of poor selection, favoritism, and bad training. (Also a bigger waste of taxpayer dollars.) And no one expects junior enlisted to show up with a set of leadership skills, although somehow those junior officers are supposed to know how to apply their own classroom leadership skills.

I learned a lot more about leadership from being trained by and from training alongside the enlisted in the nuclear power pipeline. And by the time you finished that year's work, your reputation preceeded you into the fleet where you started all over again on your first submarine by getting your qualifications from the shipboard enlisted operators.

College degrees & commissions probably dates all the way back to the beginning of the 20th century-- maybe earlier? I wonder how the military would work today if officers were only able to be commissioned from the ranks. We'd really be using those 40-year pay tables.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

O

Stop your noodling and go observe some kids.

Oh I have, but the question remains: are the kids in those "good" preschools more impressive because they had better skills and their parents worked with them and because of that, they went into the better school or did the better school produce the skills from good raw materials?

What I'm doubting is that you take a child with average to below average basic abilities and limited parental influence and the right preschool puts them on an even, or nearly even, footing with a kid with above average abilities and strong parental influence.

We've got a Montessori school in the area and i've seen what they do and how they do it. Its not intuitive to me that this style could or should produce a better outcome than a more traditional approach, but you're right...the wealthier parents send their smarter kids there.

I was pretty interested in the recent california effort to put all kids in preschool, as the expected outcome was to improve all of their further education. While it'd take 15 years to fully prove out, I guess we'd eventually learn if ANY kid exposed to preschooling turns out better all the way down the line or if it'd make no difference.

 

[Peaceful_Warrior]

It would also be interesting to try and compare those kids throughout their lives... send some to public, some to private, some homeschool, some unschool.

I think people would also be blown away by the differences in unschooled children vs. homeschooled children vs. public school vs. private school.

I read one story of an unschooled girl who didn't learn to read. Everyone in her life was very worried, and also blamed the parent for not "making" her child learn to read. Then at age 12, the daughter decided she wanted to learn to read.

By age 15 she had written 3 novels.

I think education is less about where the person goes, and more about their parental involvement and support, and how education as a whole is perceived by the child (which is often an opinion that is strongly influenced by parents).

A much more interesting discussion and observation would be to compare the experiences of those who enjoy learning vs. those who do not enjoy it, but do it because they "have to."

Still, there's always exceptions to the rules. And just because one unschooler starts late and runs out of the gates, doesn't mean they all start late, or all run out of the gates and write novels before public schooled children finish high school.

What's right for each child is a lot more individual than just "compare these two schools." It may be that homeschooling is good for one child, and in the same family, it's a terrible idea for another (which happens in many homeschool/unschool families).

The more people are in-tune with their children, the more likely they are to understand what really motivates their child to learn and thus be able to cultivate that.

Stop your noodling and go observe some kids. Observe a group of 4-yos with no preschool. And a group at a typical daycare-style preschool. And contrast those kids with a group at a "good" preschool (your neighborhood moms should know which one that is).

You'll be blown away by the differences. Nobody can prove cause and effect (FWIW, Montessori preschools were originally designed for "special-needs" kids, not rich Einsteins), but why bet against good outcomes?

 

[CCdaCE]

I was pretty interested in the recent california effort to put all kids in preschool, as the expected outcome was to improve all of their further education. While it'd take 15 years to fully prove out, I guess we'd eventually learn if ANY kid exposed to preschooling turns out better all the way down the line or if it'd make no difference.

And then, once you've established it raises/moves the "bell-shaped" curve, increases avg. test scores, HOW MUCH does it raise the curve...

So, then you get...

Nobody can prove cause and effect (FWIW, Montessori preschools were originally designed for "special-needs" kids, not rich Einsteins), but why bet against good outcomes?

... it all sounds like a multi-billion dollar Fed. gov't funded study that I'll soon be setting up a Corporation to siphon funds determine the relationship, and magnitude of it...

Have I taken too much out of context?

-CC

 

[wabmester]

Oh I have, but the question remains: are the kids in those "good" preschools more impressive because they had better skills and their parents worked with them and because of that, they went into the better school or did the better school produce the skills from good raw materials?

It's both the parents and the schools, of course. But a good school is a nice complement to a good parent. I don't have an MEd like my kid's teachers do (yes, plural -- they have two per classroom). I don't have the incredibly well-designed (and expensive) materials. I can't provide the multi-age mentoring relationships and socialization that the kid gets at school.

My kid is in preschool to learn how to learn and to build self-confidence. I honestly had no expectations about what academic boosters she'd get out of preschool, but she's been reading and writing since age 3. And there are 4- and 5-year-olds in her class doing fractions and solid geometry on an intuitive (as opposed to rote) basis. These kids have incredible neural plasticity before age 6 or so -- it's amazing what they can do when they learn to be self-motivated and follow their interests.

Let me know if you want the pitch on Suzuki music as well. (A lot more parental involvement is required for that one, but it's an amazing program.)

 

[2B]

College degrees & commissions probably dates all the way back to the beginning of the 20th century-- maybe earlier? I wonder how the military would work today if officers were only able to be commissioned from the ranks. We'd really be using those 40-year pay tables.

Before we "democratized" the military, officers were usually "gentlemen" from prominent families. In the early years significant exceptions occurred due to exceptional aptitude. Alexander Hamilton comes to mind but so many of the Revolutionary War just showed up and did what needed to be done.

Prominent families generally educated their children to a higher standard than the "normal" population. Admission to the academies generally followed the same criterea but there was the the competitive examinations that allowed well educated children from non-prominent families to be admitted.

Some exceptional officers came up through the ranks but the number in current days have almost gone to zero. WWII seems to have been the end of those days. I recall that "Chesty" who had key Marine Corp ranks in WWII and Korea was originally from the ranks. Longstreet was out of the ranks but he really never did well "in command."

How many thousands of men died during the Civil War due to the emphasis West Point put on Napoleonic tactics? Education can work both ways.

 

[Nords]

How many thousands of men died during the Civil War due to the emphasis West Point put on Napoleonic tactics? Education can work both ways.

Especially considering how many West Point graduates were on each side of the Civil War...

 

[Leonidas]

Some exceptional officers came up through the ranks but the number in current days have almost gone to zero. WWII seems to have been the end of those days. I recall that "Chesty" who had key Marine Corp ranks in WWII and Korea was originally from the ranks.

Kind of sort of, it's a convoluted story that I halfway remember. He went to VMI but dropped out to enlist in the Marine Corps during WWI. He missed the war and stayed in as an enlisted man. After the war the military did some downsizing, but the Marines still had plenty of fighting to do in places like Haiti and Nicarauga. Puller fought in Haiti as an officer of the police/military leading native troops against guerillas. I think he also got promoted to lieutenant in the Marine Corps at least twice, with the rank being taken away when the military cut back manpower and decided it had too many officers. Eventually his promotion was permanent and he went on to implement groundbreaking tactics in small wars. He earned two Navy Crosses before WWII started.

 

[2B]

Especially considering how many West Point graduates were on each side of the Civil War...

When Lee was an instructor at West Point, there was a special room and a "club" dedicated to Napoleonic tactics. Lee was the driving force behind the group. One of the big gaps in Civil War history study is the loss of the curriculum records of West Point for the years leading up to the war that would have detailed how much Napoleonic studies were done.

There is a conflict about Gettysburg. One theory has Lee being over confident sending Pickett against impossible odds. The other has Pickett a part of a larger Napoleonic circling maneuver with Jeb Stuart to attack the Union rear which was designed to cause the Union line to fold -- a classic Napoleonic tactic. Custer is given credit with delaying Stuart and letting Pickett's men be slaughtered as history records. Did Custer win the battle or a meaningless skirmish?

 

[Nords]

There is a conflict about Gettysburg. One theory has Lee being over confident sending Pickett against impossible odds. The other has Pickett a part of a larger Napoleonic circling maneuver with Jeb Stuart to attack the Union rear which was designed to cause the Union line to fold -- a classic Napoleonic tactic. Custer is given credit with delaying Stuart and letting Pickett's men be slaughtered as history records. Did Custer win the battle or a meaningless skirmish?

When this argument debate comes up at the local Civil War Roundtable (about once per meeting, sometimes more frequently) the consensus is usually that Lee was way too confident in his artillery barrage while ol' Jeb was way too far out of the box to do any good.

It's like wandering into an ER discussion group and asking "So, should my SWR be 4% or 5%? And should I pay off my mortgage before I do that?"

The locals, most of whom are descended from Hawaiians & Asian immigrants, think that the whole concept of a Civil War Roundtable is pretty funny... just don't get them started on Hawaiian soverignty or internee reparations.

 

[2B]

When this argument debate comes up at the local Civil War Roundtable (about once per meeting, sometimes more frequently) the consensus is usually that Lee was way too confident in his artillery barrage while ol' Jeb was way too far out of the box to do any good.

I can argue both sides. Much of the documentation is in "after action reports" which have generally been designed to enhance the importance of which ever officer writes them. That's been true since before Ceaser.

The one bit that is very supportive of the "encirclement" is the supposed "cannon signals." It came from a source that didn't have anything to look good about.

The locals, most of whom are descended from Hawaiians & Asian immigrants, think that the whole concept of a Civil War Roundtable is pretty funny... just don't get them started on Hawaiian soverignty or internee reparations.

I dated a sansei (sp?) for a while in college. Many JA's were "discovering their roots" which included reliving the injustice of the WWII relocations. I endeared myself to her and many of the other JA's by pointing out that their grandparents for foreign nationals from a hostile state. Most of their parents were minors even though they were legally US citizens. US citizens in Japan, Germany and captured territories were treated even more harshly. German citizens in the US were treated about the same as the Japanese although there weren't as many. Some GAs were also in camps if there was a significant "loyalty" question. One branch of my family were naturalized citizens (a route not open to the Japanese). The FBI liked to visit with my great grandfather occasionally. His brother's grandson was a POW in Arizona.

 

[streamjp]

Hi - We have a high school junior, currently evaluating colleges and I noticed a lot of posts from CA/ Bay Area. Live on the east coast now but lived in the Bay Area for two years and my son loved it there. He is a B+ student, business interest and interested in St Mary's college in Moraga.

Does anyone from CA have any experience or comment with this school.

Thanks.

 

[samclem]

Hey, who hijacked this civil war thread!!

I don't know anything about St Mary's. I attended UCLA, and at that time (early 80's), the UC system was a darn fine bargain.

 

[2B]

Hey, who hijacked this civil war thread!!

I don't know anything about St Mary's. I attended UCLA, and at that time (early 80's), the UC system was a darn fine bargain.

Nords and I were swapping West Point trivia so we're almost on topic. The civil war battles involving West Point grads were someone's children.