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Old 05-08-2016, 12:13 PM   #21
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(shudder) I thought I was the only one who worried about such things in the middle of the night. I sincerely hope none of us ever have to experience scenarios like that.
You're not alone, perhaps I read too much Orwell. This sounds good on paper to many folks. Those people(imo) live very sheltered lives from the real world.

It's not just black market items that cash is used for, millions don't do anything that involves a bank transaction. I recall Megacorp going electronic pay and folks having issues because they didn't have bank accounts of any type. Exceptions were quickly given.
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Old 05-08-2016, 12:17 PM   #22
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No thanks, I prefer my freedom.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:11 PM   #23
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To the extent possible I've already gone 100% cashless.

Somehow I retain my freedom.

More than that, I'm about to embark on an around the world trip where my wife and I have bought eight first class tickets (four each) with airline miles earned by using our credit card. That's about $16K in airfare from a card with a $95 annual fee.

Bondage sure does suck.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:26 PM   #24
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I would submit that there is a fundamental difference between: a) choosing to arrange your affairs so as to be cashless and b) having that state of affairs forced upon you.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:40 PM   #25
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I don't see the U.S. going cashless anytime soon. Setting aside the practical difficulties of implementation I think the anonymity and sense of freedom connected to that anonymity is deeply ingrained in this society.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:45 PM   #26
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I would submit that there is a fundamental difference between: a) choosing to arrange your affairs so as to be cashless and b) having that state of affairs forced upon you.
I would submit that no one is forcing anyone to do anything.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:51 PM   #27
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I would submit that no one is forcing anyone to do anything.
Not at present, but the wise man doesn't wait until the house has burned down to think about fire insurance.
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Old 05-08-2016, 01:56 PM   #28
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He can trade the bike, or jewelry, or gold coins, or Japanese Yen, for something else. Trade has been around much longer than paper cash.
Oh, I agree that barter has been around for much longer...

But barter is based on trading something of value that you own and someone else wants for something else of value that they own that you want... I do not think a drug dealer is going to want to trade a bicycle that he cannot get any value for if he cannot sell it for cash...

Now, jewelry and gold coins he might take... bikes? I think not....
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:03 PM   #29
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I like cash, always have and now more than ever.

I like to remain "anonymous". Every time I go to buy anything anymore I get asked "club member", no, "want to join now, 10% off everything you have here", no

Then I pay cash. I don't want the entire internet to know everything I've ever bought.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:09 PM   #30
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As long as there is a want/need for anonymous transactions, there will ALWAYS be cash.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:12 PM   #31
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I honestly don't see moving away from cash as making a big dent in crime, just changes where / how it's done.

My wife and I have been lucky and never been robbed of cash. However, since I started tracking in 2005, we've had credit card numbers (not the physical cards, just the numbers) stolen 10 times. In addition, our credit card information was "compromised" at the credit card company computers another 2 times. These credit card thieves have gotten away purchasing airline tickets, stereo equipment, some high end clothing, tools and other things I don't remember anymore. From talking to the credit card companies, they generally aren't pursued because the value of any one specific crime is too low to justify law enforcement time on.

Though I use credit cards for most of our transactions, I see no reason to call them safe and/or secure payment methods. I prefer to have cash around for minor purchases as well as backup for our credit cards when they are botched up by modern thieves and we are waiting on replacements.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:14 PM   #32
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Now, jewelry and gold coins he might take... bikes? I think not....
Even trading in jewelry and gold coins imposes far higher costs than dealing in cash. Who appraises the value of the the jewelry or coins so that each party agrees? And how do they know they'll get the same appraised value on the items for the next trade? Who stores it and protects it? What happens if my piece of jewelry is worth $200 but what I want to buy is worth only $100? And what happens when I want to spend my ill-gotten gains on something outside the criminal underworld? Will other merchants take my jewelry and gold coins without suspicion?

Money laundering is already one of the most difficult aspects of getting away with a crime. A cashless society would make it far more so.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:15 PM   #33
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As long as there is a want/need for anonymous transactions, there will ALWAYS be cash.
Not if the government decides to stop printing it.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:32 PM   #34
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Money laundering is already one of the most difficult aspects of getting away with a crime. A cashless society would make it far more so.
You'd also need to get rid of all untraceable forms of intangible substitutes and tangible value-dense goods. That includes bitcoin, valuable metals, internal criminal exchanges etc .. narcotics in some corners.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:44 PM   #35
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You're not alone, perhaps I read too much Orwell. This sounds good on paper to many folks. Those people(imo) live very sheltered lives from the real world.
The "I have nothing to hide, so the government can know everything" crowd includes my mother. Doesn't matter explaining it, it seems alot of older people have forgotten what runaway authority can do (and did do in Europe not so long ago). Younger ones vary, but alot of them are used to parents knowing where they are every second of the day, and what they are doing. Don't see anything wrong with it.

The strongest resistance seems to come from eastern europe, they still remember.

It's a lonely position to hold, favoring room for secrecy.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:45 PM   #36
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I would submit that there is a fundamental difference between: a) choosing to arrange your affairs so as to be cashless and b) having that state of affairs forced upon you.
+1
I was going to try to post something along this line, but you have done it much more eloquently and civilly than I would have been able to do.

I would just add that we are able to choose how we want to live our lives because so many in our past gave up so much to give us our freedom to choose. We owe them at least some vigilance in protecting against potential future abuses.
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:59 PM   #37
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Killing cash is a great example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Bjorn will get suckered into fewer phishing scams if we kill the internet too.
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Old 05-08-2016, 03:11 PM   #38
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You'd also need to get rid of all untraceable forms of intangible substitutes and tangible value-dense goods. That includes bitcoin, valuable metals, internal criminal exchanges etc .. narcotics in some corners.
That's true, assuming things like Bitcoin take off and more than the current handful of legit vendors start accepting them.
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Old 05-08-2016, 03:11 PM   #39
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Imagine the following scenario:

It is Friday night and I stop by the wine store to pick up a nice bottle for dinner with my beautiful bride. I get to the register, present my credit card and the transaction is rejected. The clerk tells me "Sorry, the Surgeon General has determined that an adult male should have no more than 7 drinks in a week. Government records show that you bought a six pack of beer last Sunday, and of course we assume that some of the 1.5 L bottle of rum you bought at the beginning of the month is still around. You'll have to wait a few days."

or

I pick up a box of condoms at the CVS. The checkout counter rejects me and the clerk tells me "The government has no record of any marriage. You shouldn't be having sex before then. Come back when you've got a spouse."


or

a certain personage gains political power and decides to go all Lucius Cornelius Sulla on his political opponents, so they don't threaten him in the future. You are one of them. Now you can't buy food, medicine, gas for the car, electricity for the house, or anything else. You wait at home in the dark until they come to carry out the proscription.
The opposite which has happened, is you have $400,000 in cash and the govt declares the 'old' cash is worthless in 5 days and you can only change $2,000 worth of it for the 'new' currency.

Now you have practically nothing.
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Old 05-08-2016, 03:19 PM   #40
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I think most money crime is carried out electronically, its just a crime that us not seen.
Tomorrow you can search the Panama Papers to see if your local official has hidden a few million/billion offshore.
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