Killing Cash

[Gone4Good]

I would submit that there is a fundamental difference between: a) choosing to arrange your affairs so as to be cashless and b) having that state of affairs forced upon you.

I would submit that no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[Gumby]

I would submit that no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

Not at present, but the wise man doesn't wait until the house has burned down to think about fire insurance.

 

[Texas Proud]

He can trade the bike, or jewelry, or gold coins, or Japanese Yen, for something else. Trade has been around much longer than paper cash.

Oh, I agree that barter has been around for much longer...

But barter is based on trading something of value that you own and someone else wants for something else of value that they own that you want... I do not think a drug dealer is going to want to trade a bicycle that he cannot get any value for if he cannot sell it for cash...

Now, jewelry and gold coins he might take... bikes? I think not....

 

[RobbieB]

I like cash, always have and now more than ever.

I like to remain "anonymous". Every time I go to buy anything anymore I get asked "club member", no, "want to join now, 10% off everything you have here", no

Then I pay cash. I don't want the entire internet to know everything I've ever bought.

 

[FireBug]

As long as there is a want/need for anonymous transactions, there will ALWAYS be cash.

 

[Whisper66]

I honestly don't see moving away from cash as making a big dent in crime, just changes where / how it's done.

My wife and I have been lucky and never been robbed of cash. However, since I started tracking in 2005, we've had credit card numbers (not the physical cards, just the numbers) stolen 10 times. In addition, our credit card information was "compromised" at the credit card company computers another 2 times. These credit card thieves have gotten away purchasing airline tickets, stereo equipment, some high end clothing, tools and other things I don't remember anymore. From talking to the credit card companies, they generally aren't pursued because the value of any one specific crime is too low to justify law enforcement time on.

Though I use credit cards for most of our transactions, I see no reason to call them safe and/or secure payment methods. I prefer to have cash around for minor purchases as well as backup for our credit cards when they are botched up by modern thieves and we are waiting on replacements.

 

[Gone4Good]

Now, jewelry and gold coins he might take... bikes? I think not....

Even trading in jewelry and gold coins imposes far higher costs than dealing in cash. Who appraises the value of the the jewelry or coins so that each party agrees? And how do they know they'll get the same appraised value on the items for the next trade? Who stores it and protects it? What happens if my piece of jewelry is worth $200 but what I want to buy is worth only $100? And what happens when I want to spend my ill-gotten gains on something outside the criminal underworld? Will other merchants take my jewelry and gold coins without suspicion?

Money laundering is already one of the most difficult aspects of getting away with a crime. A cashless society would make it far more so.

 

[Gone4Good]

As long as there is a want/need for anonymous transactions, there will ALWAYS be cash.

Not if the government decides to stop printing it.

 

[Totoro]

Money laundering is already one of the most difficult aspects of getting away with a crime. A cashless society would make it far more so.

You'd also need to get rid of all untraceable forms of intangible substitutes and tangible value-dense goods. That includes bitcoin, valuable metals, internal criminal exchanges etc .. narcotics in some corners.

 

[Totoro]

You're not alone, perhaps I read too much Orwell. This sounds good on paper to many folks. Those people(imo) live very sheltered lives from the real world.

The "I have nothing to hide, so the government can know everything" crowd includes my mother. Doesn't matter explaining it, it seems alot of older people have forgotten what runaway authority can do (and did do in Europe not so long ago). Younger ones vary, but alot of them are used to parents knowing where they are every second of the day, and what they are doing. Don't see anything wrong with it.

The strongest resistance seems to come from eastern europe, they still remember.

It's a lonely position to hold, favoring room for secrecy.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I would submit that there is a fundamental difference between: a) choosing to arrange your affairs so as to be cashless and b) having that state of affairs forced upon you.

+1
I was going to try to post something along this line, but you have done it much more eloquently and civilly than I would have been able to do.

I would just add that we are able to choose how we want to live our lives because so many in our past gave up so much to give us our freedom to choose. We owe them at least some vigilance in protecting against potential future abuses.

 

[GrayHare]

Killing cash is a great example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Bjorn will get suckered into fewer phishing scams if we kill the internet too.

 

[Gone4Good]

You'd also need to get rid of all untraceable forms of intangible substitutes and tangible value-dense goods. That includes bitcoin, valuable metals, internal criminal exchanges etc .. narcotics in some corners.

That's true, assuming things like Bitcoin take off and more than the current handful of legit vendors start accepting them.

 

[Sunset]

Imagine the following scenario:

It is Friday night and I stop by the wine store to pick up a nice bottle for dinner with my beautiful bride. I get to the register, present my credit card and the transaction is rejected. The clerk tells me "Sorry, the Surgeon General has determined that an adult male should have no more than 7 drinks in a week. Government records show that you bought a six pack of beer last Sunday, and of course we assume that some of the 1.5 L bottle of rum you bought at the beginning of the month is still around. You'll have to wait a few days."

or

I pick up a box of condoms at the CVS. The checkout counter rejects me and the clerk tells me "The government has no record of any marriage. You shouldn't be having sex before then. Come back when you've got a spouse."


or

a certain personage gains political power and decides to go all Lucius Cornelius Sulla on his political opponents, so they don't threaten him in the future. You are one of them. Now you can't buy food, medicine, gas for the car, electricity for the house, or anything else. You wait at home in the dark until they come to carry out the proscription.

The opposite which has happened, is you have $400,000 in cash and the govt declares the 'old' cash is worthless in 5 days and you can only change $2,000 worth of it for the 'new' currency.

Now you have practically nothing.

 

[Sunset]

I think most money crime is carried out electronically, its just a crime that us not seen.
Tomorrow you can search the Panama Papers to see if your local official has hidden a few million/billion offshore.

 

[Gone4Good]

The point that seems completely overlooked is that people are choosing to go cashless because most people find it better. That's true in Sweden and that's the case here in the U.S.

Many of us also choose to go without land-line telephones or printed books or any number of other things that have outlived their usefulness. Not sure why cashless payment technology gets such conspiracy theory treatment.

If a cashless society is in our future (and I believe it is) it will be because the vast majority of us choose it.

For those worried that the government will do away with cash so they can micromanage your condoms and wine purchases you might consider that they already have the power to regulate those things. Cash or no cash doesn't change much of anything. And if that doesn't ease one's mind perhaps you can take heart from the fact that the all-powerful government lacks the strength to even abolish the lowly penny.

 

[M Paquette]

Barter and bitcoin based systems are not impacted particularly by going cashless.

 

[cooch96]

Oh, I agree that barter has been around for much longer...

But barter is based on trading something of value that you own and someone else wants for something else of value that they own that you want... I do not think a drug dealer is going to want to trade a bicycle that he cannot get any value for if he cannot sell it for cash...

Now, jewelry and gold coins he might take... bikes? I think not....

How Tide Detergent Became a Drug Currency -- New York Magazine

How about Tide detergent?

If our government goes cashless, that'll be a significant incentive for black market, conspiracists, militia types, tea partiers, and folks who just wish to remain anonymous to start using substitutes. I imagine Bitcoin and old silver coins and all sorts of things will be used.

I appreciate many consider cash to be a hassle, but I don't like the likely consequences of forcing the issue.

 

[Music Lover]

Cash still works in a power failure.

 

[Texas Proud]

The "I have nothing to hide, so the government can know everything" crowd includes my mother. Doesn't matter explaining it, it seems alot of older people have forgotten what runaway authority can do (and did do in Europe not so long ago). Younger ones vary, but alot of them are used to parents knowing where they are every second of the day, and what they are doing. Don't see anything wrong with it.

The strongest resistance seems to come from eastern europe, they still remember.

It's a lonely position to hold, favoring room for secrecy.

And Eastern Europe is mostly a cash society....

 

[Chuckanut]

I find it interesting more for the technology involved than actually doing away with cash.

I can imagine a Gubmint that decides to devalue it's way out of the National Debt by simply doubling the money supply overnight. You have 1 million in the bank today, then tomorrow you have 2 million. And then they tax you on the 1 million dollar gain.

 

[Nodak]

One should NEVER completely trust any government.

 

[HadEnuff]

Feel free to send me all of your cash. PM me for details.

 

[braumeister]

I calculate that between 5% and 10% of my total spending is in cash. That is far more than many here on this forum, but good for me.

I think it goes back decades to when many of us started complaining about the person in front of us in the checkout line at the supermarket. Digging into the purse or pocket for a checkbook, then slowly and carefully writing out a check for $3.95 to pay for some eggs and milk.

Since my youth, it has been anathema to me to use anything but cash for a purchase under $20, and DW grew up with the same mindset.

I've moderated that a bit, since I use a Starbucks card on my infrequent visits there, and I use Apple Pay from my iPhone, but most of the time for those small purchases I haul out the cash. Even more, I try hard to give the exact amount, because I recognize that the average young cashier is incapable of calculating change.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I am also almost totally cashless, paying all my bills and taxes online and using an air miles credit card for most purchases. I also agree we are moving toward a mostly cashless society, and that it has a lot of benefits. But I do think we as citizens have to, as in all things, keep a watchful eye on our government, so that we get the benefits without the potential for malice. And I think it is possible, the IRS for the most part has been able to be pretty apolitical in tax collection, so I am not really a doom and gloomer on a cashless society. My previous comments were just that we have to be watchful.

As I said, I am mostly cashless, but not totally .... today I had to put actual physical coins into a parking meter.