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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 07:46 AM   #21
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

1- Innocent until proven guilty

2- If they are guilty, they are responsible for their actions. Don't condemn all US forces for the actions of a few bad seeds (this is what typically happens).

3- Yeah, its a bad scene. If the media devoted 1/10 of the coverage of all the bad things that happen to some of the good things we are doing I think it would go a long way.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 10:41 AM   #22
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerbill
1- Innocent until proven guilty

2- If they are guilty, they are responsible for their actions. Don't condemn all US forces for the actions of a few bad seeds (this is what typically happens).

3- Yeah, its a bad scene. If the media devoted 1/10 of the coverage of all the bad things that happen to some of the good things we are doing I think it would go a long way.
1) No one wrote or said otherwise, even Wolf Blitzer.

2) No one wrote or said otherwise, even Wolf Blitzer.

3) Where do you get your information from if not from the media? Are you posting from Iraq? Are you privy to the same reports that Cheney gets every morning?
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 10:42 AM   #23
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by eridanus
3) Where do you get your information from if not from the media? Are you posting from Iraq? Are you privy to the same reports that Cheney gets every morning?
Yup. And I think the tinfoil hat improves the reception...
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 11:00 AM   #24
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmeouttahere
just that there is only one side out there and most of us refuse to jump to conclusions just because the left wing media is going ape ****.
The left wing media reports:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197916,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197949,00.html
http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php...25-1834923.php
http://www.marinetimes.com/story.php...25-1840628.php

Are we still dancing on air? Is the Marine Times interested in selling more copy and getting higher ratings?


Innocent until proven guilty, yes, but the investigation is real.

Unless it's all a vast left wing conspiracy?
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 11:19 AM   #25
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by eridanus

Unless it's all a vast left wing conspiracy?*
Honestly, I wish it were. The alleged misdeeds were about as repugnant as any I can think of. Actually, wouldn't it be great if the whole disaster in Iraq were not true and was actually some ginormous left wng conspiracy...

Unfortunately, we aren't quite that coordinated.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 11:29 AM   #26
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
3) Where do you get your information from if not from the media? Are you posting from Iraq? Are you privy to the same reports that Cheney gets every morning?
I get info from people there right now. I have a lot of good friends over there and correspond regularly with them. Half of my office staff is there right now doing a combat tour, and about 25% of my unit is.

1 & 2 were my personal opinions, which we seem to agree upon.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 11:37 AM   #27
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by gtmeouttahere
. . . overblown, uninformed, and all over the place.*. .
Thank-you for your even-handed, well-informed, and focused opinion.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:04 PM   #28
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq


Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus

Innocent until proven guilty, yes, but the investigation is real.
An investigation is great--it is just what is needed. Now if we can hold off for the results or at least a summary of what is known/what is assessed then we can have a discussion on something other than rumor.

Hey, where do I go to see the investigations by Al Qaeda and the Iraqi Baathists on their own attrocities/failure to adhere to recognized laws of armed conflict/civilized behavior? Is Al Jazeerah maybe covering that? Let me know when you find that web site. Lots of folks in the US appear to want to hand them a victory by default, so let's take a look at their standards of conduct for a hint concerning what will result.

We'll continue to fight this war on the high road and we should prosecute anyone believed to be guilty of doing otherwise. The trial should fully consider aggravating and mitigating circumstances, and will hopefully be free of high-level influence. Pronouncements by US elected officials concerning the culpabilty of servicemembers are not helpful in this regard.

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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:11 PM   #29
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

I hope gtmeouttahere doesn't consider Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter and trash like that to be "credible."

Let's not be "the Good Germans", folks. One day, you'll look pretty damn foolish.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:13 PM   #30
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by samclem

We'll continue to fight this war on the high road and we should prosecute anyone believed to be guilty of doing otherwise.* The trial should fully consider aggravating and mitigating circumstances, and will hopefully be free of high-level influence.* Pronouncements by US elected officials concerning the culpabilty of servicemembers are not helpful in this regard.

* * *
I never used to understand where folks like you were coming from, sam, until I read this piece by fred: http://www.fredoneverything.net/TheWarrior.shtml
Not trying to make any cutting remarks or be nasty (honest). I just really never understood your viewpoint until I read the piece. I still don't agree, but at least I can vaguely understand.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:35 PM   #31
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmerbill
I get info from people there right now. I have a lot of good friends over there and correspond regularly with them. Half of my office staff is there right now doing a combat tour, and about 25% of my unit is.
Fair enough. When an immediate family member was patrolling in the desert, it was as bad as reported (or worse, since the public/media was still in its "rah rah" stage). That was over a year ago, however. I hope things are truly better for the Iraqi's and the soldiers.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:42 PM   #32
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Brewer,
Fred's oversimplistic characterization of military personnel in general and strategists in particular is fairly wide of the mark (but you probably guessed I'd say that.) I think Fred would be surprised at the amount of deep thinking that goes on when building all elements of a campaign (things well outside use of conventional firepower). Fred's diatribe is a re-warming of post-Vietnam military criticism.

I don't think you and I are that far apart. I'm not prepared to excuse any Americans who are proven to have committed atrocities--they dishonor their unform, they dishonor our country, and, on a practical level, they seriously set back the good work of thousands of their fellow servicemembers in the eyes of Iraqis and the world. Lets hold them accountabe, and lets remember the other 99% of the folks who are doing a very tough job very well.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:47 PM   #33
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by samclem
* *I don't think you and I are that far apart.*
[bugs bunny voice]

He don't know me very well, do he?

[/bugs bunny voice]

Let's just say that we can have respectful disagreemens and leave it at that.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 12:56 PM   #34
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus
1) No one wrote or said otherwise, even Wolf Blitzer.

2) No one wrote or said otherwise, even Wolf Blitzer.
Two-three days ago I watched Blitzer interview the new Iraqi Ambassador to the U.S. Family members of the Ambassador's staff lived in Hadditha (sp?) and he said that his own cousin had been killed in another city in an unrelated incident. Both incidents he characterized as "needing investigation" and that the Hadditha incident appeared to be "deliberate and intentional killings" of which the Marines' version of events seemed to be at odds with "evidence" that he did not elaborate upon. Three or four times I heard Blitzer use the words "Cold-Blooded Murder" not alleged, suspected, rumored, under investigation - but statement as fact.

The Ambassador handled it well - even resisting Blitzer's obvious attempts to put those three words in his mouth.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 01:08 PM   #35
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Leonidas
Three or four times I heard Blitzer use the words "Cold-Blooded Murder" not alleged, suspected, rumored, under investigation - but statement as fact.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...aie/index.html

Yes, it appears that Blitzer did forget (?) the disclaimer.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 01:09 PM   #36
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmeouttahere
I agree Nords for the most part...But, can you expand on the comment "the rules of engagement have become much clearer than they used to be." *I feel conflicted...
Gosh, does this mean I get to tell sea stories? *OK! *Either you're a veteran and you know what I mean by that ROE comment, or you're not and you're blissfully ignorant.

In 1983 the Marines in Lebanon were "living" in a building below a ridgeline that was popular with the local insurgents. *The sentries were regularly taking fire from the ridge but according to the rules of engagement put out for that situation they weren't allowed to occupy it (too provocative) or shoot back (too offensive). *In fact the sentries weren't even allowed to have ammunition loaded in their weapons because, as one alleged Marine said to the press, "They might shoot somebody."

I spent the better part of four days on a pier in Rota, Spain talking with Marines & sailors of that task force. *Let's just say that they'd lost their faith in the judgment of the senior leadership. *It made a pretty big impression on a young ensign.

In Kosovo the patrolling soldiers could load up but they weren't allowed to shoot at anyone who targeted them (pointed a gun barrel at them or even shot overhead). *Instead they were required to report back to their command post, explain the situation, and await clarification. *One legal officer writing in the US Naval Institute's "Proceedings" magazine walked his readers through the entire ROE procedure for this situation and determined that an optimal response would take at least 15 minutes to decide whether the soldier could shoot back. *

The situation has achieved more clarity in Iraq. *It's pretty clear to the populace that if you point a weapon at an American then you will be shot. *Self defense is finally becoming the top priority that it should be. *

I think that we're also approaching a "tipping point" for yet another ROE overhaul... maybe the biggest one since Vietnam. *One task force or one battalion can't do much to change the status quo. *When, however, every active-duty officer and most of the Reservists have been in or near a combat zone and have gone on to a headquarters assignment, changes will follow. *

In the 1990s PACOM used to be a sleepy little place where people went to await retirement. *Today it's a seething cauldron of vicious competition to "break out" for promotion. *When ROE debates arose there in the early 90s, they'd be "studied" for about three years. *Today spouse tells me of meetings where an O-5, recently returned from Iraq, won't hesitate to stand up in a public meeting, point at his combat infantry badge or his campaign ribbons, and use strong words at senior officers to describe the quality of "their" ROE. *

So the changes are going through fairly quickly to "support the troops". *I just hope that the incident investigations focus on where & how the decisions were made instead of deciding that the ROE needs to be changed.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 04:13 PM   #37
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

While I don't agree with the war in Iraq I fully back our military. I think most people can't make the distinction. Remember it is the politicians that send our armed forces in harms way. Even if what was reported is true it still doesn't speak for the 130k plus soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors in the region. Don't get me wrong I feel bad for the INNOCENT civilians that die over there but we are talking a handful of Marines not the entire corps.
The bottom line is we don't know the entire story and our men and women deserve the benefit of the doubt in a demanding and stressful environment that they are in. I don't think people really understand what it is like to work your a** off 7 days a week, 12-18 hrs a day for a year and then your first sargeant pops into your tent and says, "Hey we've been extending 3-6 more months."

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One thing that is really pissing me off is that our Commander in Chief is not backing them to the fullest extent until the facts are found. He loses more of my respect by the day and I'm a conservative. Never in the history of this country has a President so easily disregarded our men and women in uniform for acts commited on the battlefield. It's sad really. I wish he would grow some balls and jump all over the media for thier ill thought out allegations instead of cowering down to them for the sake of public opinion. What ever happened to fair and balanced journalism?
Our president has been AWOL on accountability from day one. He has yet to admit going to Iraq was a mistake. Failed to demand accountability from Donald Rumsfeld. And now he has failed to stand behind our troops as he has done with his Sec Def. His leadership continues to be lacking and his term can't end fast enough.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 04:27 PM   #38
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Arif
While I don't agree with the war in Iraq I fully back our military. I think most people can't make the distinction. . .
I hear this from people fairly often, but I don't really understand it. Who doesn't support the troops? I've never heard anyone say, "I don't think this war is justified so I hope all the soldiers die." No one thinks that. No citizen wants more Americans maimed or killed. The question isn't whether or not to support the troops, it is how best to support them. If you believe the war is unjustified, misdirected and harmful to our country, the best way to support the troops is to engage in activities that will bring them home as soon as possible. Turning a blind eye to the problems is not a good way to support the troops.

On the other hand, if you believe that we need to kill everyone in Iraq who doesn't respect us or our lifestyle and sovereignty is at risk, then you think the best way to support the troops is to salute the flag, support the president and give the troops a pep talk.

We're all trying to support the troops.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 04:34 PM   #39
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Troops cleared in Iraqi deaths in Ishaqi By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. military probe has exonerated U.S. troops in the deaths of Iraqi civilians in the town of Ishaqi in March, finding American forces followed standard procedures and committed no misconduct, defense officials said on Friday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/...sa_ishaqi_dc_2

So I guess it's best to wait for investigations to finish before jumping to conclusions about how terrible our military is. *The problem is, after people prematurely convict and condemn our soldiers and the entire chain of command, they don't come back to apologize for being wrong. *Meanwhile, these people have already fed the fanatics who are looking for any excuse to wreak more havoc on our military, politicians, and country. *These people take some kind of joy in bashing without thinking of the consequences, especially the long term consequences.
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq
Old 06-02-2006, 05:27 PM   #40
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Re: Killing Civilians in Iraq

Did you read this whole article?

The Ishaqi incident was one of a handful involving civilian deaths being investigated by the U.S. military.

Quote:
. . . The most publicized case occurred in Haditha, west of Baghdad, on November 19.

The military is investigating whether U.S. Marines went on a rampage after a comrade was killed by an insurgent roadside bomb and shot dead two dozen civilians, including women and children. U.S. defense officials have said Marines could face charges including murder.
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