Kim Jong Il is dead

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW_M5 Kim and NK are good poster children for the story "The Emporer has No Clothes". He was buck naked and the people said, my what a beautiful suit you have on

What the people say is one thing, what they believe is anyone's guess. There's lot of public grieving now over KJI's death. In 1994, when his crazy pappy died, the government conducted surveys afterward to determine who had been seen crying and who had not. No tears = insufficient loyalty to the Great Leader = off to the camp for re-education. No, I'm not kidding. It's nearly impossible to overstate the levels of repression and official paranoia inside NK.
So, we see much grieving today in the wake of KJI's death--everyone wants/needs to be seen by all witnesses as being severely distraught.

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem What the people say is one thing, what they believe is anyone's guess. There's lot of public grieving now over KJI's death. In 1994, when his crazy pappy died, the government conducted surveys afterward to determine who had been seen crying and who had not. No tears = insufficient loyalty to the Great Leader = off to the camp for re-education. No, I'm not kidding. It's nearly impossible to overstate the levels of repression and official paranoia inside NK. So, we see much grieving today in the wake of KJI's death--everyone wants/needs to be seen by all witnesses as being severely distraught.

This is just a theory, but in progressive repressive governments they can also use the carrot to entice obedience instead of the stick. As in give those crying the most some food (carrots?!) to stave off starvation for another month. Those who aren't observed crying will not be provided with their weekly rations.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem So, we see much grieving today in the wake of KJI's death--everyone wants/needs to be seen by all witnesses as being severely distraught.

Luckily they all have plenty to be distraught about, no matter what Kim is in charge.

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by veremchuka One less seat in Hell.

Okay, break's over, back on your head...

[braumeister]

I wouldn't be so sure about all this. Don't forget, there are some who believe Elvis is dead, too.

[Lakewood90712]

Time to dust off that "Team America" DVD for holiday movie time.

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Luckily they all have plenty to be distraught about, no matter what Kim is in charge.

Yeah, that...

[NW-Bound]

The UN assembly held a moment of silence to honor this brutish dictator today.

Said they were following protocol.

I thought it was equivalent to pissing on the unmarked mass graves of his countless victims.

Oh, how far people go for the sake of political correctness!

[Bikerdude]

I've heard that the first indication that something was up with Kim Jong was when his Facebook status went from ill to dead.

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound The UN assembly held a moment of silence to honor this brutish dictator today. Said they were following protocol. I thought it was equivalent to pissing on the unmarked mass graves of his countless victims. Oh, how far people go for the sake of political correctness!

I think this was an olive branch extended to the NK people and leaders. Not doing it would be like pissing on the heads of NK people and leaders. Not conducive to improving relations with NK or obtaining cooperation.

[Major Tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO I think this was an olive branch extended to the NK people and leaders. Not doing it would be like pissing on the heads of NK people and leaders. Not conducive to improving relations with NK or obtaining cooperation.

Agreed, especially with the possibility that the new regime may move towards being a bit more open.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO Not conducive to improving relations with NK or obtaining cooperation.

I don't think it would make a difference with their leaders. Never seemed to make difference before. Not even China seemed able to rein them in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO Not doing it would be like pissing on the heads of NK people and leaders.

Fixed it for you.

Actually, to quote from the Web,

Several Western diplomats said Pyongyang's request for Kim to be honored was highly unusual.

I am sure that Pyongyang's media will be busy showing how the "entire world" is also crying its eyes out for the death of their beloved leader, and has bowed its collective head before this great hero.

By the way, a web article said half of the assembly floor was empty when this "ceremony" happened.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem What the people say is one thing, what they believe is anyone's guess. There's lot of public grieving now over KJI's death. In 1994, when his crazy pappy died, the government conducted surveys afterward to determine who had been seen crying and who had not. No tears = insufficient loyalty to the Great Leader = off to the camp for re-education. No, I'm not kidding. It's nearly impossible to overstate the levels of repression and official paranoia inside NK. So, we see much grieving today in the wake of KJI's death--everyone wants/needs to be seen by all witnesses as being severely distraught.

Some people who have lived their entire life in a free society, where anyone can call their president names and still lives, simply cannot understand how oppressive some other countries can be. They may ask, well, why don't the dissidents just go "Occupy Pyongyang" or something. GOOD LORD!

They ask where the people who spoke out against Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao, or Saddam Hussein, were. Of course there were none! Therefore, they conclude that all the citizens "loved" their respective leaders, of course!

If one even as much as looks at a picture of the leader in a wrong way, his entire family, actually 3 generations, may be sent off to death camps. See this and this, for example. Similarly, I guess some people may not believe there are people dying of hunger in the world. Why don't they just go get food at the nearest Walmart, or if they have no money, just call for free "hot meals on wheels" from charities?

I give up.

[Major Tom]

My reactions on seeing any footage or documentary on North Korea are:

a) This gives me flashbacks to all the movies and documentaries I've seen about Nazi Germany and,

b) Even weirder is that this is happening now.

I've also been wondering whether perhaps the North Korean regime is even more brutal and repressive than the Nazis were, though when you get to this level of insanity, I don't suppose a few extra notches on the scale make a whole lot of difference.

They're not daft enough (like Hitler was) to have designs on invading anyone else (with the exception of South Korea in the past.) If they play their cards right, they could continue subjecting the population of NK to the same misery they have been for the last 50+ years, for a while longer, sadly.

We are unbelievably lucky to be living in the free world.

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Quote:

They're not daft enough (like Hitler was) to have designs on invading anyone else (with the exception of South Korea in the past.) If they play their cards right, they could continue subjecting the population of NK to the same misery they have been for the last 50+ years, for a while longer, sadly.

I think there is a good chance they are going to slip their traces. I think they are still daft.

But what am I saying. The only evil people in the world are Americans. I forgot.

[HFWR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Not even China seemed able to rein them in.

I'm unconvinced that they try very hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed_The_Gypsy The only evil people in the world are Americans.

Maybe self-serving and self-righteous, but not evil...

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound I don't think it would make a difference with their leaders. Never seemed to make difference before. Not even China seemed able to rein them in.

It's worth a shot to try to improve relations every generation or so when you have a change in leadership. With the alternative being a repressive nuclear armed rogue nation with a crazy Jung Un manning the Red Button of Disaster and Doom. Maybe Jung Un will reflect back on his time in Switzerland or elsewhere and think about loosening the economic stranglehold their government has on their economy. What if he wants to be the one to bring about economic progress and slowly open their economy? Saving face is big in Korean society, and pissing on the grave of the father is certainly not a way to foster hopes of improving relations.

I'm thinking of China's economic liberalization when I think of what NK could become (over the next couple decades). No where near a perfect liberal open society, but much better than the alternative of severe repression and starvation.

[Brett_Cameron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy29 And in other news, Kim Jong Il is still dead.

showing your memory still works

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO Maybe Jung Un will reflect back on his time in Switzerland or elsewhere and think about loosening the economic stranglehold their government has on their economy. What if he wants to be the one to bring about economic progress and slowly open their economy?

I suppose it could happen. But the leadership in NK is interested in staying alive, and that means staying in control. Opening up economically, even to the extent China did, will mandate a level of information flow in and out of the country that the regime cannot allow if it is to survive. This year has made it very clear that the retirement plan for despots isn't a good one, and the level of repression and brutality in NK leaves very little possibility for a soft landing.
Chinese leaders primarily want to avoid a NK collapse that would flood their country with refugees, and in maintaining a buffer against South Korea, especially if that buffer can also serve as a military threat to SK which reduces their economic power.
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