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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 08-31-2004, 08:16 PM   #41
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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Yech.

Health-nuts, let me ask a question that's been bugging me for a while. Dietary guidelines have been out there for a while that tell us to eat less fat, more fiber, etc for something like 20+ years now, right? An entire generation. And most of us either take this stuff seriously or at least know somebody who does, right?

So, why has the incidence of obesity and heart disease actually increased during this period?

Personally, I don't think the low-fat/bad-fat research is wrong per se, I just think there's an underlying incorrect assumption that dietary fat/cholesterol is more insidious than metabolically generated fat/cholesterol.

It'll probably be another 20 years or so before we know the answer, but somehow I doubt that mainstream nutritional advice is on-target. And it tastes bad too
Thats an easy question to answer. Everybody know whats good to eat, but nobody eats it. And if they claim they do and they're fat, they're lying or sneaking crap food.

I dont have a problem with the part of "low carb" that says to cut out simple sugars and junk food. Thats sensible. I cant buy into the part that says "shovel meat and fat down as fast as you can". Fer chrissakes the guy promoting the diet just died of a heart attack! (but of course, the diet had nothing to do with it...autopsy? No thank you!). I dont get the idea of selling a good idea (cutting out sugar) and then coupling it with shovelling down cholesteral and saturated fat.

How about eating your vegetables, grains and legumes, eat smaller portions of lean meat and fish (excluding the mercury and lead laden ones), reduce your fat, trans fats and hydrogenated fats, and cut out the white sugar and junk foods? Its the diet I eat. I lose weight on it. I feel more energetic. I'm never hungry.

Not to mention 3 months after I put my wife on it she got pregnant at 43! Its the diet I tell ya. The diet. Yep, it was the diet. All the diets fault.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 08-31-2004, 09:04 PM   #42
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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I cant buy into the part that says "shovel meat and fat down as fast as you can".
Yeah, I was skeptical too. * I completely ignored the whole low-carb thing as a fad until pretty recently. * I was taught that sugar is basically inert and that "a calorie is a calorie." * I only came around after my latest annual check-up with a new doc (who did his post-doc research on the effects of diet on CHD).

So, we did the "before" lipid profile, then I went on a low-carb diet for 4 weeks, and then did the "after" lipid profile. * *The results convinced me, and I basically dined on a breadless McDonalds diet for those 4 weeks (which was quite a change from my previous "reasonable" diet).

I don't take the results at face value. * I want to understand the metabolic pathways and to reconcile the results with all of those low-fat studies out there.

But in retrospect, I used to eat a ton of carbs. * Not just simple sugars, but fruit juices, starchy vegetables, breads, pasta, etc. *Much more than evolution would have ever considered in her design of my digestive system. * *The result, in theory, is that we're all freaks of our sugar culture from an early age, and that it eventually catches up with us in the form of insulin resistance at about our age.

If you think about it, meat is mostly protein, and there's nothing bad that protein can do to you but put your kidneys under heavy load.

Apparently, there's a German study (which I still haven't found) in which they fed the participants a *lot* of animal fat -- like pounds of lard. * And then they measured what came out the other end, and got pretty much the same amount that went in. * So the current thinking is that animal fat is pretty much inert, and sugar (including the end results of complex carb metabolism) is evil in high quantities.
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Old 08-31-2004, 10:45 PM   #43
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Start slow...

... cut out beer & bread. Or at least knock it down to a couple times a week!

But maybe it's the three tae kwon do workouts a week for the last five months.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 05:17 AM   #44
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

[quote]
But in retrospect, I used to eat a ton of carbs. * Not just simple sugars, but fruit juices, starchy vegetables, breads, pasta, etc. *Much more than evolution would have ever considered in her design of my digestive system. * *The result, in theory, is that we're all freaks of our sugar culture from an early age, and that it eventually catches up with us in the form of insulin resistance at about our age.
quote]

I agree, on average, we are eating too much carb to start with. Average restaurant serving of pasta is double/triple of starch you are supposed to eat per meal. Coupled that with sedate lifestyle, tons of sugars and junk food, we got a problem. And we start them young too, by rewarding kids with candies, at Haloween, at Christmas, etc. (And people wonder why their kids are fatter today?)

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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 11:19 AM   #45
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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And we start them young too, by rewarding kids with candies, at Haloween, at Christmas, etc. (And people wonder why their kids are fatter today?)
I studied biochem in college (among other diversions), and the thinking at the time was that sugar was harmless. You burned it for energy, and the worst thing it could do to you was cause tooth decay.

I was raised on Coke and Pepsi -- pure sugar water. We were literally "the Pepsi generation." Parents today have wised up, and I see kids sucking on juice boxes all day. That's basically the same thing as Pepsi with a few more vitamins.

We were basically designed to drink water and milk. Fruit is fine, but eat it whole since that binds the sugar up in the fruit's "matrix," which makes it less available to digest.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 11:53 AM   #46
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

The "german study" isnt real. It seems most fake studies are "german" or "swiss" for some reason. There are a number of 'studies' that show your body wont absorb and store excess fat. Any that actually has MD's involved and real results that can be analyzed show something different.

If you eat too much of anything, of course a large portion of it will simply pass through you. However your system is fully capable of absorbing a buttload of fat from an average meal. Fat is converted to 9 calories per gram. Proteins and carbs are converted at half that rate.

Unfortunately while you can see blood test results from "low carb/high fat" eating right away, you cant see the long term results of a high fat diet on your heart health on a test. The real weight loss from "low carb" diets has already been shown to be boredom. On the traditional low carb regimen, people start to eat less and less total calories. When dug into, this has been because they're bored with their food and arent interested in eating more of it.

I think you need to slip a shim between simple and complex carbs. Along with providing ample energy, a bowlful of oatmeal takes a lot longer to digest than a donut (tieing us back to the original topic) and will make you feel "full" longer. Meaning you're not going to eat again soon, but still have energy to keep you going.

Another bugaboo I'll bring up is alcohol consumption. I take it from reading most of our posts that we're mostly at least light to moderate drinkers. Nothing wrong with that. But your bod will convert the alcohol directly to sugar and loves to convert and store that excess sugar as fat in your liver. So called 'fatty liver' syndrome where the liver becomes twice its size and speckled with fat. Its stored that way so your liver can quickly and easily convert that close-up stored fat into energy if needed. Except by the next evening you're supplying it with more alcohol converted into sugar, so it doesnt have to. In fact, the majority of people with a "beer belly" are seeing an enlarged liver and not a 'belly' at all.

This can also result in the creation of high triglyceride levels in the bloodstream. The good news is while most doctors cast a wan eye on triglyceride levels, there isnt a study on the planet that connects high triglyceride levels with anything unhealthy.

In fact, some people have high trigylceride levels that appear to be genetic. Its in my family, and I can assure you it isnt diet related. Me, my dad and my grandfather all enjoy/ed high triglyceride levels. My grandfather considered sausage to be a vegetable, smoked and didnt drink at all. My dad eats a lot of lean meat and vegetables but few grains, doesnt smoke and drinks a couple of glasses of wine a day. I eat a small amount of lean meat, and lots of vegetables and grains, dont smoke and drink a couple of glasses of wine or a couple of beers a day. Our triglyceride levels are all within about 20 points of each other in the 350 range. My grandfather lived into his late 80's until he died of congestive heart failure. My dad is 70, healthy as a horse, and looks ten years younger than he is.

You did hit on one tenet I'm moving towards: eating whole foods. My objective one day is to eliminate boxes, bottles and bags. Zero processed food.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 12:24 PM   #47
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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The "german study" isnt real. *It seems most fake studies are "german" or "swiss" for some reason. *There are a number of 'studies' that show your body wont absorb and store excess fat. *Any that actually has MD's involved and real results that can be analyzed show something different.
TH, you are the master of fake studies, so I'll take you at your word here. I'll be the first to admit that I'm always skeptical of health studies given the potential conflicts of interest and the difficulty of designing long-term robust studies.

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Fat is converted to 9 calories per gram. *Proteins and carbs are converted at half that rate.
Calories are measured using a calorimeter. They basically burn stuff and measure how much heat is generated. Frankly, I never understood the assumption that calorimeters were a good model of metabolic "burning."

Quote:
Unfortunately while you can see blood test results from "low carb/high fat" eating right away, you cant see the long term results of a high fat diet on your heart health on a test.
Yup, that's the big unknown. Apparently, there are non-invasive tests (like cardiac calcium scoring) that will give you a more direct indication of cardiac health. Of course, insurance companies won't pay for them.

Quote:
In fact, some people have high trigylceride levels that appear to be genetic. *Its in my family, and I can assure you it isnt diet related.
Dude, I'm almost convinced that you're my aborted twin

Do me a favor, and try the low-carb experiment for a month. My TriG went from 362 to 125 in a month. I lost 12 pounds, and I ate like a pig. I fully expected the experiment to fail, and I ate in a way which I thought would allow me to tell my doc "Hah! You fool!" I was wrong.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 12:46 PM   #48
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

Oh I love this low-carb craze. It's always something, isn't it!

At first, food processors were unhappy about it. Until in true capitalistic fashion, they had a brilliant idea... Hey, let's put "Low Carb" or "No Carb" on it, reduce the carbs, reduce the net weight of the product, and sell it for the same price, or more! We like Low Carb$!

I doubt ancient man in most races was a heavy meat-eater. After all, the prospective "dinner" had the Darwinian urge to run and escape, or turn and fight. Now there's a diet that WILL reduce weight... the Bear Diet! Only primitive tools allowed!
In the forest, one diner says to another "ya know, you shouldn't be eating all that meat, it's not healthy for ya. You should be eating more berries". And the other bear says "stop naggin' me, will ya?"

But some did evolve to be almost/exclusively meat eaters. Like the Eskimos (their yummy ice cream products were for export, only). Mmmmmm, how about another chunk of whale blubber... you filled up yet?
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 01:18 PM   #49
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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But some did evolve to be almost/exclusively meat eaters. *Like the Eskimo....
Yeah, those crazy Eskimos. They eat nothing but fat and cholesterol all day. But somehow they have no signs of coronary heart disease.

FWIW, I generally don't follow crazes (OK, I think I did buy one beanie baby and a tamagotchi, but that's it -- I swear!) I like the idea of controlled experimentation and measurable results, though.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 02:00 PM   #50
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

Aborted twin?

Hmm.

Of course the eskimo's dont have heart disease...anyone who lacked the genetics to take that sort of diet simply died off, leaving those who could to procreate.

Darwin!
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 02:09 PM   #51
 
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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Aborted twin?

Hmm.

Of course the eskimo's dont have heart disease...anyone who lacked the genetics to take that sort of diet simply died off, leaving those who could to procreate.

Darwin!

Having spent a little time fishing with Inuits in the Canadian Arctic, I can shed a little light here.

Their diet is very high in fat, but it is the good kind. Arctic Char is like Salmon (very tasty) whale and seal (seal is not bad, but a cold piece of whale blubber will separate the men from the boys). *

Lately with the introduction of Processed food, their *diet is headed south.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 02:30 PM   #52
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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. . . I doubt ancient man in most races was a heavy meat-eater. *. . .
You'd be wrong about that. Man started out as a hunter-gatherer -- but mostly hunter -- from paleolithic times. Archaeology studies indicate a mostly meat (large game) diet with minor amounts of gathered grains and nuts. In most areas around the world, this dominance of meat in the diet continues even after the global climate change that contributed to the loss of large game animals. Man simply adapted their hunting to smaller mamals. Agriculture and sedentary lifestyles don't come till much later throughout the world. At that time man becomes much more dependent on corn, beans and squash (or the local equivalent in some areas).

Although the move to a sedentary from hunter-gatherer lifestyle brings about a significant explosion of cultural development in the form of textiles, ceramics, architecture, etc. it was also often associated with the onset of health problems in the population -- not always.

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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 02:44 PM   #53
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

TH, high triglycerides are a death sentence. Lay off sugars of any kind, simple or starch. No coke or pess! And transfats! Whoever manufactures them is going to be in for megalawsuits.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 02:54 PM   #54
 
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

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TH, high triglycerides are a death sentence. Lay off sugars of any kind, simple or starch. No coke or pess! And transfats! Whoever manufactures them is going to be in for megalawsuits.

Zipper,

I am a believer in laying off the Sugar. But I have heard it's fine to consume diet coke etc.
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal
Old 09-01-2004, 03:09 PM   #55
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Re: Krispy Kreme and the mystery of corp. shortfal

Cut-Throat, the cure for high triglycerides is cold-water fish oil. Salmon will do, or sardines, anchovies, mackerel etc. Or Arctic Char!
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