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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 07:01 AM   #21
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
Not sure I see what the problem is.

Wouldn't you want your daughters to have a vaccine that helps prevent cervical cancer.
Yes, I probably would eventually...certainly not at 11-12 year old, and certainly do not want to be forced into that decsion by the government....and especially not by a government that has been purchased by a corporation that stands to make literally *billions* of dollars by passing laws that force children to have the vaccine which hasn't even been on the market long enough to be proven safe or effective.

I think people should educate themselves and decide for themselves what they should do for their own families based on available evidence...I know what my 11 y/o daughter is doing at any moment of any day. She does not need to be protected against STD's.

According the the American Academy of Pediatrics, they are "advocating a 'go-slow approach' that focuses on raising awareness of HPV and monitoring the safety of the vaccine. "

Or according to the "National Vaccine Information Center":


"The most frequent serious health events after GARDASIL shots are neurological symptoms," said NVIC Health Policy Analyst Vicky Debold, RN, Ph.D. "These young girls are experiencing severe headaches, dizziness, temporary loss of vision, slurred speech, fainting, involuntary contraction of limbs (seizures), muscle weakness, tingling and numbness in the hands and feet and joint pain. Some of the girls have lost consciousness during what appears to be seizures." Debold added "The manufacturer product insert should include mention of syncopal episodes, seizures and Guillain-Barre Syndrome so doctors and parents are aware these vaccine adverse responses have been associated with the vaccine."

Or this:
"GARDASIL safety appears to have been studied in fewer than 2,000 girls aged 9 to 15 years pre-licensure clinical trials and it is unclear how long they were followed up. VAERS is now receiving reports of loss of consciousness, seizures, arthritis and other neurological problems in young girls who have received the shot," said NVIC President Barbara Loe Fisher. "At the same time, parents who take their daughters to private pediatricians are going to be shocked to find that they will be paying two to three times the widely publicized $360 cost for the three-dose series. The cost is going to break the pocketbooks of parents and break the banks of both insurance companies and taxpayers, when the reality is that almost all cases of HPV- associated cervical cancer can be prevented with annual pap screening of girls who are sexually active."

or maybe Caroline would like to chime in here anytime with my "secret agenda".
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 07:03 AM   #22
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Anyone remember polio?
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 07:25 AM   #23
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Anyone remember polio?
Anyone remember Vioxx?

Quote:
An editorial published in the December 2005 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine reveals that Vioxx maker Merck & Co. intentionally withheld documents showing that additional heart attacks were suffered during a clinical study of the recalled arthritis drug. According to the latest report, which was published by the journal's editor in chief, an executive editor and a third doctor, Merck hid heart attacks suffered by three patients in a 2000 report on the clinical study.

The editorial also alleges that Merck executives deleted other relevant data before publishing the article with the journal. The new findings call into question conclusions found in the 2000 report, which was co-authored by Merck's vice president for clinical research. The journal has asked Merck to submit a correction.

In August 2005, a Texas jury awarded more than $250 million to the wife of a 59-year-old marathon runner who died of a heart attack while taking Vioxx. The lawsuit was the first of many to go to trial. Over 4,000 Vioxx-related lawsuits are currently pending.
or this:

Quote:
A federal jury in New Orleans on Thursday found Merck [corporate website] negligent for failing to warn doctors about the risks associated with taking the painkiller Vioxx [Merck Vioxx Information Center website; JURIST news archive] and found that Merck knowingly misrepresented the risks involved.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 07:44 AM   #24
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
Yes, I probably would eventually...certainly not at 11-12 year old, and certainly do not want to be forced into that decsion by the government....and especially not by a government that has been purchased by a corporation that stands to make literally *billions* of dollars by passing laws that force children to have the vaccine which hasn't even been on the market long enough to be proven safe or effective.

I think people should educate themselves and decide for themselves what they should do for their own families based on available evidence...I know what my 11 y/o daughter is doing at any moment of any day. She does not need to be protected against STD's.

According the the American Academy of Pediatrics, they are "advocating a 'go-slow approach' that focuses on raising awareness of HPV and monitoring the safety of the vaccine. "

Or according to the "National Vaccine Information Center":


"The most frequent serious health events after GARDASIL shots are neurological symptoms," said NVIC Health Policy Analyst Vicky Debold, RN, Ph.D. "These young girls are experiencing severe headaches, dizziness, temporary loss of vision, slurred speech, fainting, involuntary contraction of limbs (seizures), muscle weakness, tingling and numbness in the hands and feet and joint pain. Some of the girls have lost consciousness during what appears to be seizures." Debold added "The manufacturer product insert should include mention of syncopal episodes, seizures and Guillain-Barre Syndrome so doctors and parents are aware these vaccine adverse responses have been associated with the vaccine."

Or this:
"GARDASIL safety appears to have been studied in fewer than 2,000 girls aged 9 to 15 years pre-licensure clinical trials and it is unclear how long they were followed up. VAERS is now receiving reports of loss of consciousness, seizures, arthritis and other neurological problems in young girls who have received the shot," said NVIC President Barbara Loe Fisher. "At the same time, parents who take their daughters to private pediatricians are going to be shocked to find that they will be paying two to three times the widely publicized $360 cost for the three-dose series. The cost is going to break the pocketbooks of parents and break the banks of both insurance companies and taxpayers, when the reality is that almost all cases of HPV- associated cervical cancer can be prevented with annual pap screening of girls who are sexually active."

or maybe Caroline would like to chime in here anytime with my "secret agenda".
The reason they give it at 11 or 12 is simply put IF yes IF your girls decide at 16 17 18 or 21 to have sex, and in your mind god forbid, they would be protected.

Look I had a daughter your kids age and we taught her all about the dangers of relationships that go too far, however she did have a boyfriend and hey things happen. well she never got pregnant, went to college, went to medical school went thru residency and is now a fellow at a large medical institution and married. We NEVER made decisions that forbid her to do things that we knew she was mature enough to handle. Teach your girls all of your values and yes have them protected by this new vaccine, even though they are young. Like I said before I have seen what cervical cancer does to women.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 08:03 AM   #25
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

I don't disgree that ulitmately it might be the right decision..I just want it to be a decision my family makes...not one the govt and a for-profit drug company makes for me..and certainly not a drug company with a proven history of lying about the safety of its products.

I know when I make the decision it will be for the right reason...can you honestly say that Merck will make its decision based on whats best for my daughter? or will its decisions and research be decided by whats best for its shareholders and executives?

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 08:26 AM   #26
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Ah, nothing better than a spirited, emotional debate to get the blood flowing in the morning.

For me, the issue at stake is the government deciding what is best for us instead of allowing people to make their own decisions. In addition, this is not a disease that is transmitted during normal social interaction, which children are necessarily exposed to by attending public school. The public school system will be used as a hammer to enforce this ruling.

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 08:31 AM   #27
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

To repeat what has already been said, the state of TX allows any parent to opt out by simply providing a signed, notarized letter to the school that they do not want their child to have the vaccine.

Looks to me like that allows people to make their own decision.

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 08:41 AM   #28
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
Anyone remember Vioxx?
Uhh... polio is almost gone.

It's about competing risks, never black and white.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 09:14 AM   #29
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
Thats about the stupidest comment I have ever read on this board.
I'm sensing a little ambivalence on this quantitative & balanced evaluation of the other poster's comments. What makes them less valid than yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
I know what my 11 y/o daughter is doing at any moment of any day. She does not need to be protected against STD's.
Good luck with those statements, which I would also nominate for your award. Perhaps some war-story quality time with school counselors and health staff would impart their experience with contagious STDs in the less-traveled corners of our local educational institutions... let alone the popular kid's hangouts.

Our 14-year-old is getting the HPV vaccine as soon as it's available. She also has a standing parental offer for birth control whenever she musters up the courage to tell us she's ready. Personally I'm hoping that's when she's also old enough to drive herself to the doctor's office and buy it with her own money, but I'm not picky. Speaking as a charter member of the hormonally-challenged teen club, my sympathies are with whoever she chooses as her first partner.

Sex, drugs, and rock&roll: as a parent I'll feel blessed to declare victory in successfully mentoring our kid through just one of these categories. Two would be sensational. I know it's not happening with rock & roll.

Instead of getting our collective knickers in an uproar about HPV vaccines, what about vaccines for chicken pox, shingles, and anthrax? Now there's some hairballs!
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 09:23 AM   #30
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

>>Good luck with those statements, which I would also nominate for your award.

Well since I homschool all my children, and they are with me or my wife 100% of the time I don't need any luck at all with those statements. Its a simple statement of absolute fact.

>>What makes them less valid than yours?
Carolines statements wasn't even an opinion...it was stupid comment that implied somehow that since Caroline has a cervix she has more rights than I, to decide what is best for my daughters health...all because of my secret agenda.

>>Instead of getting our collective knickers in an uproar about HPV vaccines, what about vaccines for chicken pox, shingles, and anthrax?

Chicken pox, shingles and I assume anthrax can all be caught via casual contact with other students or at the store or local mall...not even close to the same category as STD's.

If one can argue that HPV vaccine should be given to 11-12 year old girls than its only a very small step to say that Birth control should be mandated for that same group of people. After all, its proven safe, and you just never know....

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 09:49 AM   #31
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum
i would imagine many women are tired of guys putting their laws on women's bodies.
I'm dizzy from the circular reasoning.

Normally people are upset because they don't want the government telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Now in this case those same people are upset because they want the government to mandate what women have to inject into their bodies.

Talk about "hidden" agendas.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 10:08 AM   #32
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

The reason the government seems to be in this IS because the Christian Right has made it clear that they do not want this vaccine made available PERIOD!

There has been much discussion in those religious quarters on HOW to stop this vaccine.

Religious freaks, all denominations ruin society!
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 10:19 AM   #33
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

I understand the public health concerns and the rationale for requiring certain mandatory immunizations. I think, however, that the burden should be on the government to show that they are preventing a devastating plague. In this case, I think they've fallen a good deal short.

I'll tell you the one that I don't understand: (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this). There are some who believe (in the naturopathic community) that the rubella vaccine compromises the human immune system long-term because it commits a vastly disproportionate percentage of the human immune capacity (which is not infinite). I don't know if this is true or not, and I have had a bad experience with naturopaths and don't trust them.... BUT

Rubella is basically a harmless disease unless you are pregnant woman in the first trimester. SO....why are males required to get it as a precondition to attend public school? I know....because they might give rubella to a pregnant woman. But wouldn't it make more sense to only require females to get the vaccination? If there is a potential downside, why require half the population that doesn't need it to get it as well?

just curious...
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 10:21 AM   #34
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
I understand the public health concerns and the rationale for requiring certain mandatory immunizations. I think, however, that the burden should be on the government to show that they are preventing a devastating plague. In this case, I think they've fallen a good deal short.

I'll tell you the one that I don't understand: (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this). There are some who believe (in the naturopathic community) that the rubella vaccine compromises the human immune system long-term because it commits a vastly disproportionate percentage of the human immune capacity (which is not infinite). I don't know if this is true or not, and I have had a bad experience with naturopaths and don't trust them.... BUT

Rubella is basically a harmless disease unless you are pregnant woman in the first trimester. SO....why are males required to get it as a precondition to attend public school? I know....because they might give rubella to a pregnant woman. But wouldn't it make more sense to only require females to get the vaccination? If there is a potential downside, why require half the population that doesn't need it to get it as well?

just curious...
I had the german measles as a child and my mom was pregnant at the time.

I think that is the reason males should get the vaccine.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 11:00 AM   #35
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
Yes, I probably would eventually...certainly not at 11-12 year old, and certainly do not want to be forced into that decsion by the government....and especially not by a government that has been purchased by a corporation that stands to make literally *billions* of dollars by passing laws that force children to have the vaccine which hasn't even been on the market long enough to be proven safe or effective.
that is completely reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
Speaking as a charter member of the hormonally-challenged teen club, my sympathies are with whoever she chooses as her first partner.

Sex, drugs, and rock&roll: as a parent I'll feel blessed to declare victory in successfully mentoring our kid through just one of these categories. Two would be sensational. I know it's not happening with rock & roll.
that is completely funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
And being gay or black and all that 'stuff' is false argument IMO.. rubbish

Also, they had a 32 YO lady who has the cancer and is expected to be dead by April.. she was happy that they are making it a 'requirement'... she would have loved to have had the vaccine and be able to live... trump THAT..
that is completely arrogant.

by the way, i wasn't making a case at all for any argument either way, (though certainly, for your record, i do believe a daddy has say) rather i was expressing what i saw as the basis for caroline's sentiment which i believe lead to her remark. while feelings can be be based on misinformation, like it or not, it's less likely false about how someone feels, but more likely there is faulty about how someone thinks. thinking in arrogant terms will rarely help you understand any more clearly or empathize at all with how someone else feels.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 11:33 AM   #36
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Are you sure? Have you checked under the cushions in your couch. I find things there sometimes.
I'll ask my wife, she has the uterus tracking device installed.

As described above, we have a no-win discussion here about an emotional issue vs an intellectual one.

Not as bad as emotional vs emotional, but still no-win. The facts are what they are and the feelings are what they are. Nobody is going to change someones feelings with facts and vice versa.

Hairballs indeed.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 11:58 AM   #37
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

I thik there are several issue types.

How good and careful is the science establishing efficacy and risk for this vaccine? I don't know, but I think it is a very important point. How many women in the US would have to be vaccinated to prevent one case that progresses to full blown cancer? How may side effects, and of what severity, would this many vaccinations produce?

It is true that in a wealthy country like ours most cases of cervical cancer or the precursor dysplasia get caught and treated.

Another issue is public health vs. individual autonomy. It seems to me that many modern societies, and certainly the US, are toward laissez faire when it comes to treatment, reporting, etc. of diseases with a strong infectious or public health component. Is this something that might have to be looked at more closely? For example, should the authorities be able to quarantine those with bird flu? How about the issue of TB and immigration? Used to get you a return trip from Ellis Island; but who has heard of anyone being sent home lately?

This vaccination could perhaps save a lot of lives. It might also save a number of men and women from embarrassment and perhaps marriage strains.

I'd vote yeah based on that alone!

Ha
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 01:20 PM   #38
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
How good and careful is the science establishing efficacy and risk for this vaccine? I don't know, but I think it is a very important point. How many women in the US would have to be vaccinated to prevent one case that progresses to full blown cancer? How may side effects, and of what severity, would this many vaccinations produce?
I am not in my area of expertise, so did some quick reading. Here is what I found in trusted sources:

o 95%+ effective in preventing HPV infection when used as directed.
o Side effects thus far are extremely rare. Some studies include thousands of patients over nearly 5 years with no detectable adverse effects compared to unvaccinated controls.
o Cervical cancer in the USA: about 10,000 new cases a year, about 4000 deaths.
o It is over 95% effective in preventing early cervical cancer when used as directed, so far (5 years).
o Most scientists and researchers feel it is very, very safe and highly effective.

Meadbh is certainly a lot smarter than I am about this and perhaps she'll jump in.

At any rate, complex as the problem is, the safety and efficacy of the vaccine are not at issue, barring some conspiracy by Merck to hide scarey data or pay off scientists. At least in this situation, I don't feel there is any reason to think that has happened -- lots of public health oversight.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 01:35 PM   #39
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
.....I know what my 11 y/o daughter is doing at any moment of any day. She does not need to be protected against STD's.
Dude, unless you are 10 miles from town and home-schooling your children, and they NEVER leave home without you or your wife, you really can not make an unqualified statement like that. Kids are resourceful. And unfortunately, they often surprise you with what they will do in an ffort to be accepted by their peers.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-03-2007, 01:43 PM   #40
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMcDonald
.....not one the govt and a for-profit drug company makes for me..and certainly not a drug company with a proven history of lying about the safety of its products.
OK, my previous post aside, I would like to add that I have agreed with pretty my OldMc has had to say. This is exactly the kind of governmental interference I was referring to in my "I'd be a Confederate" statement.

And Merck's record isn't exactly stellar. Also, with the recognized level of kickbacks and "fact-finding trips" to exotic locations I'm not sure that government and for-profit are mutually exclusive. Somebody's palm got greased to pass that bill. And I believe it is an infringement on OldMc's freedom of choice.
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