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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-04-2007, 04:48 PM   #61
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
<shudder> You know, if I were a chick I would probably opt FOR this vaccine just based on that alone. Ever since I learned what a pap smear was I've been both relieved I was born an "mcp" and sympathetic to whatever partner I had at the time. I feel for you, ladies.


I'll let the ladies comment on what it's like from their end of the deal, but you may have a slightly exaggerated impression of just how bad it is. No one likes it, but from what they tell me it's usually a pretty routine if unpleasant chore. Nary a complaint besides, "glad that's over with for a couple of years."
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-04-2007, 07:06 PM   #62
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

I can honestly say that I dreaded the yearly female exam in my younger days (I'm 43 now). After having two kids, I no longer give a rats a$$. When you're giving birth, everyone and their uncle seems to have shoved their upper bodies into that private space and it no longer becomes such a big deal. That plus being older, wiser and more secure about my body probably helps. I have two girls, 21 and 23. I believe they are old enough to make the decision about this vaccine on their own. I will do the research and provide them with my findings and my opinion. Right now, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Insurance companies should be required to pay for this vaccine....especially if states are going to require it or make you actually sign a letter saying you opt out. I would also LOVE for the male population to participate in prevention of spreading of this virus AND taking drugs to prevent pregnancy. Some of my apprehension comes from being a chemist for a large pharma company and knowing how quickly new drugs are developed and pushed through the pipeline and what may be compromised by the necessity ($$) of getting these new drugs onto the market.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 10:36 AM   #63
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by newguy888
I had the german measles as a child and my mom was pregnant at the time.

I think that is the reason males should get the vaccine.


this is exactly my point. If your mom had the vaccine (before she was pregnant), then what would it matter if you had german measles?

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 10:58 AM   #64
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by bosco
this is exactly my point. If your mom had the vaccine (before she was pregnant), then what would it matter if you had german measles?
It's about the oddly named "herd immunity." Before a disease is eradicated or nearly so, you have to push its incidence down below a certain level in the entire population (the number depends on the properties of the disease). In the above example, the second generation would not be immune and would spread it among themselves with undesired consequence. They serve as a reservoir for future transmission and even epidemic outbreaks once the herd immunity dropped too low.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 11:37 AM   #65
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

I'd just like to pop in on this thread to say:

- I don't have a cervix,
- My values generally would get me labeled as a right wing Christian conservative,
- My 5 year old daughter will get or not get this vaccine based solely on two things: the medical risk/reward benefit, which I anticipate will favor the vaccine, and what her mother thinks.

Mainly I wanted to say that there is at least one person in this country that is both a "religious nut" and rational about this vaccine.

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 11:52 AM   #66
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by SecondCor521
Mainly I wanted to say that there is at least one person in this country that is both a "religious nut" and rational about this vaccine.
Ahh, but there you go... if you are rational you cannot be a true religious nut!
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 03:53 PM   #67
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Another view, from Texas... Gov Perry did something useful, I'm all for it.

The media was in full frenzy. Sticking TV cameras in people's faces everywhere. Like outside of schools, "interviewing" Moms in cars that had at least one daughter in the car. Typical TV crap, no journalism, only sensationalism. The "reporter" tells the Mom some quick blurb off-camera, the Mom didn't know anything about it, but they film the "surprise and outrage" response. We have no idea how many people they "interviewed" in this style, that didn't object, because that would upset their "news" story.

However, one report was a few seconds of tape on a representative of some Christian-Right group, and he said they had no objection. That the vaccine would cover future cases of rape, or a later marriage to a partner who carried the virus. They thought it was a good idea. I do, too.

In Texas, anyone who can't afford a required (required for public school) shot can go to their county health office, and get it for a few bucks. All us Texas taxpayers fund that. Furthermore, insurance companies cover it, and Gov Perry has instructed that Medicaid will cover it up to some age, 29 I think it was.

All the blab about Perry being linked to the drug company etc. and that is why he is doing it, is typical reactionary drivel. What would those same people say today, if the Salk and Sabin Polio vaccines were just coming out? That it's all politically connected? Sure, we'd rather take our chances with Polio, Pertussis (Whooping Cough), etc. etc.

I'm not a big-government, government-should-solve-all kind of person. But I do think a good use of government is to protect children up to the age that they can make their own informed decisions. And that may require protecting them, even in the presence of stupidity of their parents. Child seat-belt and booster-seat laws, are just one example.

The media went crazy with this one, but they have tired of it, on to something else.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 04:15 PM   #68
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
It's about the oddly named "herd immunity." Before a disease is eradicated or nearly so, you have to push its incidence down below a certain level in the entire population (the number depends on the properties of the disease).
I saw a FASCINATING show on PBS some time back -- showed how they eradicated smallpox in Africa with third-world limitations. If dim memory serves, they educated little BOYS (who are always running around the village and know everything) about the sickness. As soon as anyone in a Village got smallpox, the kids were trained to report it. They the health workers innoculated EVERYONE within a certain radius to keep the outbreak contained.

Yes, big pharma can be reprehensible at times, (most of the time?) but the scientists and health workers on the front lines are absolute heros.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 10:38 PM   #69
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521
I'd just like to pop in on this thread to say:

- I don't have a cervix,
- My values generally would get me labeled as a right wing Christian conservative,
- My 5 year old daughter will get or not get this vaccine based solely on two things: the medical risk/reward benefit, which I anticipate will favor the vaccine, and what her mother thinks.

Mainly I wanted to say that there is at least one person in this country that is both a "religious nut" and rational about this vaccine.

2Cor521
Nope you are NOT a religious nut case, you actually think the vaccine is useful.

Nope sorry you are just like us, rational.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-05-2007, 11:44 PM   #70
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Its not that the naysayers dont think the vaccine is useful.

Its all the premarital teenage sex stuff that lines up and forces the search for why its a bad thing.

Because THEIR kid isnt going to have sex before marriage, although statistically they will...and if they do, their kid wont do it before they're 18, although statistically they will...and if they do, they wont contract a venereal disease...although statistically they will.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 12:28 AM   #71
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Its not that the naysayers dont think the vaccine is useful.

. . .
I've been avoiding this thread, but . . . I think Old MdD asked some legitimate questions. As a left-wing nut vs a right-wing nut I probably don't share all of the same motivations as him, but am I the only other person that questions the drug company research and motives? Based on recent history of pharmaceutical safety research, I am a little concerned that this is yet another vaccine that will turn out to have worse side effects than positive benefits. And don't tell me that there is no indication that this research is tainted. There never is any indication that the research is tainted until we have a trail of dead or incapacitated bodies.

And the Texas State Legislature is hardly the most trustworthy body I can think of as an endorsement partner. These are the same guys that hid for months in NM and then proceded to follow the lead of Tom DeLay to jerrymander the whole state.

So we have a huge profit motive for both a drug company and a corrupt state legislature. That just doesn't inspire confidence in me.

Don't get me wrong. I hope this vaccine works and saves millions of lives. But I think there is plenty of room for reasonable people to be quite skeptical.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 07:26 AM   #72
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
And the Texas State Legislature is hardly the most trustworthy body I can think of as an endorsement partner. These are the same guys that hid for months in NM and then proceded to follow the lead of Tom DeLay to jerrymander the whole state.

Problem is that the legislature had nothing to do with this.... Perry bypassed the legislature and made it an executive order.... so don't throw that into the argument as it is complety false...
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 08:06 AM   #73
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
These are the same guys that hid for months in NM and then proceded to follow the lead of Tom DeLay to jerrymander the whole state.
To be completely accurate, a dozen or so Democrats in the Texas Senate did "hide out" in New Mexico for a while, but they were doing so to try to prevent Delay and the Republican majority from redistricting:

"Texas State Senator Rodney Ellis who, along with 10 of his fellow Democratic state senators, have gone into voluntary “exile” in New Mexico. The Democrats have fled Texas in order to prevent the Texas Legislature from passing a Republican-backed bill that would redraw the state’s congressional districts in a way that would eliminate up to 7 Democrats from the U.S. House of Representatives."

The rest of the story: they eventually returned to the Senate, lost the vote, lost several Democratic seats in the US House. The redistricting was fought in the courts and was partially invalidated and one seat was regained (Dem Ciro Rodriguez defeated Rep Henry Bonilla).

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 08:31 AM   #74
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
<shudder> You know, if I were a chick I would probably opt FOR this vaccine just based on that alone. Ever since I learned what a pap smear was I've been both relieved I was born an "mcp" and sympathetic to whatever partner I had at the time. I feel for you, ladies.
The vaccine doesn't eliminate the need for PAP smears. As far as I know, if prevents only 70% of the viruses. You still have to have the annual exam including smear.

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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 10:06 AM   #75
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by audreyh1
The vaccine doesn't eliminate the need for PAP smears. As far as I know, if prevents only 70% of the viruses. You still have to have the annual exam including smear.
That's correct based on current knowledge. In addition, Pap smears sometimes detect uterine cancer (as opposed to cervical cancer). It is plausible that way down the road if HPV is eradicated or drastically reduce, the benefit of a periodic Pap smear in vaccine recipients may need to be reassessed. But not for now.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 10:31 AM   #76
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Don't get me wrong. I hope this vaccine works and saves millions of lives. But I think there is plenty of room for reasonable people to be quite skeptical.
I agree completely. Lets have some healthy skepticism and discussion on real data. Whoops...the problem is that the concern has little to do with the data.

- "Bad" pharmacy companies trying to pass off half-baked drugs to make money
- "Bad" legislature trying to big brother us into compliance
- Presumption that their kids will be in the minority that dont end up having teenage premarital sex
- Whiffing on the benefits, because its likely to be #1 and #2

Bear in mind that i'm the LAST guy on the planet that wants the government to tell me what I should and shouldnt do with my kids health because I'm already going to look at the data and do what looks to be the safest and best thing for him.

But in another analog, i'm glad the county requires rabies shots for all dogs, because 80% of my neighbors wouldnt do it otherwise. When people think with their hearts and wallets, somebody has to provide the brains on occasion.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 10:43 AM   #77
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I've been avoiding this thread, but . . . I think Old MdD asked some legitimate questions. As a left-wing nut vs a right-wing nut I probably don't share all of the same motivations as him, but am I the only other person that questions the drug company research and motives? Based on recent history of pharmaceutical safety research, I am a little concerned that this is yet another vaccine that will turn out to have worse side effects than positive benefits. And don't tell me that there is no indication that this research is tainted. There never is any indication that the research is tainted until we have a trail of dead or incapacitated bodies.

And the Texas State Legislature is hardly the most trustworthy body I can think of as an endorsement partner. These are the same guys that hid for months in NM and then proceded to follow the lead of Tom DeLay to jerrymander the whole state.

So we have a huge profit motive for both a drug company and a corrupt state legislature. That just doesn't inspire confidence in me.

Don't get me wrong. I hope this vaccine works and saves millions of lives. But I think there is plenty of room for reasonable people to be quite skeptical.
I think it is reasonable to question the profit motivations of those involved. My thoughts and questions:

1. I think the profit motive can sway some who stand to more directly benefit and who are further away from the consequences of introducing bad drugs to the market. In my mind, this would include, potentially, Merck top executives. I would hope that the remainder of Merck employees are real, living, breathing human beings who wouldn't sell their neighbor's kids down the river for a pop in the stock price. But I can conceive how this could happen.

2. You wrote "yet another vaccine" - which other vaccines have been shown to have a greater negative effect than positive? I am not aware of any. I am aware that some recent other drugs have been approved by the FDA and then pulled. Does anyone know if the studies on this vaccine are more thorough or well done than Vioxx, etc.?

3. Even if they were involved, which someone else has posted that they are not, what profit motive is there for the legislature? Unless they are Merck shareholders without daughters of their own, they're not going to profit personally from this. And even if they did, I would expect their humanity and reason to win out over a few hundred or thousand dollar increase in their Merck holdings.

4. Finally, I would just point out that they do have elections from time to time, so the group of individuals that represents Texas currently is not the same group of people involved in the jerrymandering issue of several years ago. Although there is probably some significant overlap between the two groups of people.

2Cor521
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 10:53 AM   #78
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

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Originally Posted by SecondCor521
I think it is reasonable to question the profit motivations of those involved. My thoughts and questions:
Good points. While not a blind fan of Merck, vaccines in general are the Rodney Dangerfield of medical progress. We spend zillions on high tech this and that, as we forget .... tetanus, polio, smallpox, measles, influenza, diphtheria, whooping cough, rubella-related birth defects, and others, with likelihood in the foreseeable future of cervical cancer virus, AIDS, and malaria being amenable to immunizations.

There's not much money to be made in vaccines by doctors or hospitals but from a societal perspective there represent serious benefits.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 11:05 AM   #79
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Lets consider the risk-reward of selling...what...20-30 million doses of a vaccine which generally arent big cash cows vs a lawsuit brought by the parents of 20-30 million 12 year olds who got sick from it because the drug company hid something or was deceptive, or even half-assed about the research.

Granted theres a huge margin of plausibility in half-assedness around these days... :

The reward simply isnt there for evil merck to take the chance.

Similarly, the politicos that put this in place must realize the risk they're taking. Not sure some campaign contributions or other evil intent possibilities outweigh the specter of never working in politics again because YOU ran through the laws that gave killer vaccines to everyones teenage daughters.
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Re: Leave it to Texas...
Old 02-06-2007, 11:19 AM   #80
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Re: Leave it to Texas...

Suppose we had a new vaccine against, say, cancer and learned that cancer was contagious with 50% of exposures resulting in a new cancer somewhere down the road.

Suppose the vaccine was highly effective (95%) and had almost no other side effects but that it killed one recipient for every million doses.

Would you vote for mandatory vaccination?

How bout one vaccine death per 100,000,000, or one per 10,000? Suppose it cost $3000 per dose? How about $3 per dose. Free? Would you hold the manfacturer harmless for vaccine deaths, and pay up through a tax-supported fund?

I know how Merck would vote. It's more complicated for the rest of us, especially government leadership.
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