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Old 01-26-2008, 10:07 AM   #21
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It is quite possible that one can dislike both of them.
Yup.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:24 AM   #22
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OK, I stay away from politics, but this Chris Rock video is funny:

glumbert - Chris Rock's 2008 Election Analysis
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Old 01-26-2008, 12:07 PM   #23
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Less than a year away...
Brewer, dude, I thought this thread was going to be your announcement that bulk shippers have greatly accelerated your ER plans.

Or that your employer had finally realized the value of your contributions and was recognizing them in a fiscally-appropriate manner.

But I can see that work doesn't appear to be improving your disposition.
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Old 01-26-2008, 01:26 PM   #24
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When will you people ever learn that even if Clinton was the Devil incarnate, that does not excuse GWB's actions over the last seven years? If you want to defend the Shrub's actions and character, go ahead, but comparing them to Clinton is no way to go about it. Just as it would be wrong to say Clinton must have been a good president just because he is not Bush. It is quite possible that one can dislike both of them.
Obviously you don't like Bush's actions - I respect that. I know you won't agree but every day that goes by that we are not attacked - I give Bush credit. There are people out there that very much want to see you and me dead only because we are Americans - and they felt that way before GW entered politics. I expect my president to address that - in fact protecting the homeland is one of the few things government does these days that is actually in the Constitution. Additionally, his actions have the potential to change the world - I hope and pray that it is for the positive.

And I didn't like Clinton's actions. The president is the top leadership position in this country - hands down. Uncontested fundamentals of leadership include integrity and honesty - Clinton failed miserably here a(and not only with Lewinsky) and therefore since he cannot be trusted I cannot follow him. How so many people give him a pass on this basic flaw is beyond me.

You and others will say that Bush is not honest either and I will disagree. Time may prove him wrong - and I don't agree with everything he does - but I do believe he acts based on strong convictions and believes he is acting in the best interest of the country.

I don't claim to have it right all of the time - I just try to keep things simple. I guess politics just aren't that simple.
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Old 01-26-2008, 01:34 PM   #25
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Great, now I know better than to post this stuff. The first reply is from a nutball on my ignore list...
which one...
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:01 PM   #26
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Obviously you don't like Bush's actions - I respect that. I know you won't agree but every day that goes by that we are not attacked - I give Bush credit. There are people out there that very much want to see you and me dead only because we are Americans - and they felt that way before GW entered politics. I expect my president to address that - in fact protecting the homeland is one of the few things government does these days that is actually in the Constitution. Additionally, his actions have the potential to change the world - I hope and pray that it is for the positive.

And I didn't like Clinton's actions. The president is the top leadership position in this country - hands down. Uncontested fundamentals of leadership include integrity and honesty - Clinton failed miserably here a(and not only with Lewinsky) and therefore since he cannot be trusted I cannot follow him. How so many people give him a pass on this basic flaw is beyond me.

You and others will say that Bush is not honest either and I will disagree. Time may prove him wrong - and I don't agree with everything he does - but I do believe he acts based on strong convictions and believes he is acting in the best interest of the country.

I don't claim to have it right all of the time - I just try to keep things simple. I guess politics just aren't that simple.
My point was not so much whether we agree or disagree on GWB. To give you some perspective, I did not like Clinton; I voted for Perot both times. Rather, my complaint is about those who will defend Bush by attacking Clinton, or vice versa. They both may be good, both bad, or one good and one bad, but that is irrelevant. Each should be judged against the ideal we set for our presidents. An example would be defending Stalin by pointing out all the bad things that Hit....(his neighbor to the West) did. Both of them were astonishingly evil, regardless of what his neighbor did.

And while we are on logical fallacies -- one cannot prove a negative. Thus, the fact that a terrorist attack has not happened in this country since 9/11 may be due to the great work of the current Administration, but then again, maybe the terrorists got sick, hit by a bus or just haven't gotten around to it yet. You can't prove it either way.

Finally, strong convictions and a belief that you are doing the Lord's work are of no help when one is a complete idiot. David Koresh had both and look where he ended up.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:47 PM   #27
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And while we are on logical fallacies -- one cannot prove a negative. Thus, the fact that a terrorist attack has not happened in this country since 9/11 may be due to the great work of the current Administration, but then again, maybe the terrorists got sick, hit by a bus or just haven't gotten around to it yet. You can't prove it either way.
While your point of logic stands to reason in a textbook - I beg to differ from a real world perspective. Again there are people staying up nights figuring out how to kill you and me - there have been several attempts thwarted. Give the administration a little credit here - you can't really think that no successful attacks since 9/11 is a coincidence? (pardon the double negative)

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Finally, strong convictions and a belief that you are doing the Lord's work are of no help when one is a complete idiot. David Koresh had both and look where he ended up.
With all due respect, I don't remember David Koresh being on the ballot for any political office. Although you may not like him, Bush did rise to be the man elected for the highest office of the most revered country on the planet. If idiot is an appropriate word then God help us all.

And at the risk of another comparison with Clinton - WJC is far from dumb - in fact he may be one of the shrewdest politicians of modern times - where he falls short is in integrity and honesty. You just don't know if his actions are conducted for our best interest or his.

Putting him in terms that we can all understand - Imagine if WJC was your boss at work and you were talented and a threat to displace him. Think about it.
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Old 01-26-2008, 06:22 PM   #28
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If idiot is an appropriate word then God help us all.
Amen!
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:07 PM   #29
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While your point of logic stands to reason in a textbook - I beg to differ from a real world perspective. Again there are people staying up nights figuring out how to kill you and me - there have been several attempts thwarted. Give the administration a little credit here - you can't really think that no successful attacks since 9/11 is a coincidence? (pardon the double negative)



With all due respect, I don't remember David Koresh being on the ballot for any political office. Although you may not like him, Bush did rise to be the man elected for the highest office of the most revered country on the planet. If idiot is an appropriate word then God help us all.

And at the risk of another comparison with Clinton - WJC is far from dumb - in fact he may be one of the shrewdest politicians of modern times - where he falls short is in integrity and honesty. You just don't know if his actions are conducted for our best interest or his.

Putting him in terms that we can all understand - Imagine if WJC was your boss at work and you were talented and a threat to displace him. Think about it.
Once again -- I do not care about Clinton. If Bush is your man, defend him without reference to Clinton's faults. I say GWB is: a) evil and b) stupid. Convince me he is not.

P.S. -- How do you know people are "staying up nights figuring out how to kill you and me"? I don't flatter myself enough to think that anyone is trying to kill me. And what specific attempts have been thwarted? How do you know?

It seems to me that you have been drinking the Administration kool-aid -- "There are people trying to kill you. Only we can keep you safe. You must surrender your civil liberties so we can continue to protect you. Don't look at that man behind the curtain." Try reading George Orwell's "1984". You will find many parallels to our current situation.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:44 PM   #30
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Great, now I know better than to post this stuff. The first reply is from a nutball on my ignore list...
naw, I think this a good summary, although I think the writer could have substantiated it a bit more with more precise writing. Also address GWB's enviromental impact.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:45 PM   #31
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I say GWB is: a) evil and b) stupid. Convince me he is not.
Not interested in trying to change your mind. Do like the banter back and forth though - forces me to think through things and put thoughts into words.

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P.S. -- I don't flatter myself enough to think that anyone is trying to kill me.
I'm sure many of the thousands who died in the Twin Towers felt the same way.

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It seems to me that you have been drinking the Administration kool-aid -- "There are people trying to kill you. Only we can keep you safe. You must surrender your civil liberties so we can continue to protect you. Don't look at that man behind the curtain." Try reading George Orwell's "1984". You will find many parallels to our current situation.
I don't know about that. I just like the fact that the administration isn't putting its head in the sand on this one.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:11 PM   #32
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P.S. -- I don't flatter myself enough to think that anyone is trying to kill me.

I'm sure many of the thousands who died in the Twin Towers felt the same way.
==========
What did that have to do with Iraq?
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:14 PM   #33
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GW is probably the most lambasted president in US history. A lot of that is due to his lack of "slickness"; he's an easy target. The media and the blue-staters, who admittedly lost a very close election, are the ones making all the noise about Iraq being a total farce. Those of us who put the man in office are patiently waiting to see the endgame, knowing that our military and intelligence agencies have information that CNN doesn't. WMDs might have nothing to do with our decision to oust Hussein. It's called propaganda and misdirection. GW is man enough to take the heat because he's trying to accomplish something that will protect the entire planet. Wait and see. I think McCain is going to be the next President, but I bet if a Dem wins, we still finish the mission. BTW, my nephew is a Marine, has been there, and is going back.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:03 AM   #34
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GW is probably the most lambasted president in US history. A lot of that is due to his lack of "slickness"; he's an easy target. The media and the blue-staters, who admittedly lost a very close election, are the ones making all the noise about Iraq being a total farce. Those of us who put the man in office are patiently waiting to see the endgame, knowing that our military and intelligence agencies have information that CNN doesn't. WMDs might have nothing to do with our decision to oust Hussein. It's called propaganda and misdirection. GW is man enough to take the heat because he's trying to accomplish something that will protect the entire planet. Wait and see. I think McCain is going to be the next President, but I bet if a Dem wins, we still finish the mission. BTW, my nephew is a Marine, has been there, and is going back.
GW is probably the most lambasted president in US history-> this is a logical outcome of unnecessarily starting a war, or at least 4 years later, still not presenting an acceptable argument for those lambasting.

A lot of that is due to his lack of "slickness"; he's an easy target-> a C student, who spent the first major part of his life drinking and losing other people's money, eventually getting himself elected... this ain't slick? And what's up with that accent acquired after most language skills are established.

Those of us who put the man in office are patiently waiting to see the endgame-> polls consistently show this "patient" mass voting dislike of GWB.

knowing that our military and intelligence agencies have information that CNN doesn't-> this I really find hard to believe, though am neither a student of history nor politics. A quick perusal of past wars I think shows no great truth unveiled after any war that wasn't intrinsically understood during armed conflict, and this before internet, CNN, satellite. Lots of books may be written, dissertations accomplished, but the general perception seems to remain the same.

GW is man enough to take the heat because he's trying to accomplish something that will protect the entire planet-> read protect oil and line the pockets of his cronies donors friends associates.

BTW, my nephew is a Marine, has been there, and is going back-> I hope he stays safe.
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Old 01-27-2008, 12:16 AM   #35
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Since the true measure of a presidency is not determined until long after he is out of office - don't be surprised if GW goes down as a good one. Afterall, he was president during a very rare time in our history - being attacked on our own soil. And - if by chance - the muslim terrorist threat goes the way of the Nazi's - my guess is Bush will get his share of the credit. His poll ratings will mean nothing then.

I'm finding it interesting to compare the "legacy opportunity" for Clinton and Bush - and am thinking that the history books will much kinder to Bush. Just my gut feel.
And what legacy might that be for Bush? That he had one of, if not the lowest approval ratings in history? I actually voted for him the first time sorry to say...but eventually he just didn't point our country in the direction that I liked. A vast majority of Americans seem to agree with me on this at this point. Unfortunately we don't have the ability of a perspective of far out into the future to view him so we can only go on what we know now...that he got us into an unnecessary war at great cost to our country.
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Old 01-27-2008, 05:50 AM   #36
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Unfortunately we don't have the ability of a perspective of far out into the future to view him so we can only go on what we know now...that .
Thanks for re-making my original point. Time will tell and it is possible that those of us alive today will not be the ones writing the legacy. Those who are not as emotionally attached who have the luxury of looking at the long term impact of the decisions that we either like or dislike today - they will have the most say. And I'm not saying it will be great - though I am praying that it will be positive.

Isn't this fun?
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Old 01-27-2008, 07:29 AM   #37
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Didn't the president say he would get Bin Laden ? While wearing the NYFD helmet dead or alive?

Not much time left for that huh?
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Old 01-27-2008, 09:44 AM   #38
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Didn't the president say he would get Bin Laden ? While wearing the NYFD helmet dead or alive?

Not much time left for that huh?
I don't get the point?? Have we given up trying?

I keep things simple and assume that we have some very smart military people who have as their sole objective - get Bin Laden. The fact that they have not captured him yet makes me think it is difficult.
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:02 AM   #39
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Mmmm that's why the Bush admin. whisked all the bin Ladens out of the country whilst no one else was flying on 9/11-9/12.. That's why Bush said, on multiple occasions, he's "not that concerned about him". And that "it's not our priority." I'm not really a conspiracy theorist.. but I don't see the energy coming from above. I see a lot of energy going towards tapping our phones, though.

In life, Arc, simplicity, especially willful simplicity, will only get you so far.

U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (washingtonpost.com)
This is and has been a non-story as far as I can tell.. Imagine if it were something they could hang around Clinton's neck, though... Just sayin'.

Of course I know SOME people are trying.. but if we didn't have this minor Iraq distraction (for which Bush had a hard-on by and before 2000) couldn't SOME of those resources of 150,000 troops and SOME of those billions and trillions (now $275 million PER DAY) could go toward teaching our folks Arabic and Urdu and Pashto and seriously bribing some warloards to smoke out bin Laden, no? Instead of us taxpayers paying to send Bush wonks to (ha!) try and eradicate their opium fields.. their only apparent source of income?
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:34 AM   #40
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IMHO, all of our presidents are dirty. Comes with the territory. Since I will never be president, there will never be a president I wholehartedly agree with
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