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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-26-2007, 03:52 PM   #21
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

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Proportional representation is not "true democracy." That would be all of us voting on every issue every time and all having the ability to call a vote on any subject. The closest we come to that is the initiative process. A key part of "proportial represented parliments" is that the party gets a certain percent of the votes and they appoint who will sit. Many have the ability to to change out their representative just to make sure they won't leave the reservation. It also fosters extremist positions and fragments any government (far beyond the dems and repubs).
There are many different systems that proportional rep'n takes - so i don't think you can cast them w/ one blanket. also, it's not the only answer to fixing this broken ship - we need a new ship. but i do think it will help people feel far less disinfranchised.

Also, then what reforms do you support? (let's find solutions here)

and i'd like to point out that all of your stats only refer to "%of those who voted" - the gigantic # of people who did not vote, were not allowed to vote (women, minorities) are not represented in your statistics.

When you have plurality in the congress, then people will have to work together to find agreement on issues...maybe even have a real debate once in a while.

and by the way, if you are opposed to the party choosing the candidates - how does that differ from how candidates are selected now?
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-26-2007, 04:39 PM   #22
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

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Originally Posted by 2B

Proportional representation is not "true democracy." That would be all of us voting on every issue every time and all having the ability to call a vote on any subject. The closest we come to that is the initiative process.
i'm not against a representative democracy - i think it's ok to have people who focus on policy - CA is a place where term limits are starting to take hold and you can see it isn't the best thing either (nor are people who are in office for 50 years, but something in between please?!) i don't think people should have to vote on everything and again, the initiative process is also easily abused as is the case in CA and other states where people have developed deceptive initiatives...
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #23
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

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Originally Posted by bright eyed

When you have plurality in the congress, then people will have to work together to find agreement on issues...maybe even have a real debate once in a while.

and by the way, if you are opposed to the party choosing the candidates - how does that differ from how candidates are selected now?
#1 above.. what have YOU been smoking?? It will not happen..

#2 above... there is a difference between the party picking after a vote is taken and candidates winning a vote of the people of their party and then going on to the general election... the one votes for the party and they could put someone everybody hates... the other you vote for the individual.. if he is not around, then it is not he party that replaces him...
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-26-2007, 05:11 PM   #24
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

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Originally Posted by bright eyed
Also, then what reforms do you support? (let's find solutions here)
Better educated voters and vigorous criminal prosecutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
and i'd like to point out that all of your stats only refer to "%of those who voted" - the gigantic # of people who did not vote, were not allowed to vote (women, minorities) are not represented in your statistics.
Originally, in the USA you were required to be a property owning male. Various races were included in the voting population. That was a legacy of the British system as much of our laws are also based. The system evolved.

You can play "what if" with anything. The rules at the time are the rules at the time. I won't go off on a long history of voting rights over the last 250 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
When you have plurality in the congress, then people will have to work together to find agreement on issues...maybe even have a real debate once in a while.

and by the way, if you are opposed to the party choosing the candidates - how does that differ from how candidates are selected now?
Surely you don't think that either the dems or repubs are ever united other than when they vote on which party will control the agenda! Look at the current example of some repubs putting out their own "get out of Iraq" bill. Many dems sided with the repubs on the welfare reform that was crammed down Bill C's throat. The list is endless. We'll start seeing the fragmentation in the dems once they actually start working on "real" bills and not the PR crap.

There are many primaries where conflicting dems and repubs fight other members of their own parties. Look at Liberman losing the primary and then coming back and winning the general election as an independent. You can probably point to races in the last election where two people of the same party smeared each other in the primary.
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-27-2007, 01:52 AM   #25
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

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#1 above.. what have YOU been smoking?? It will not happen..

#2 above... there is a difference between the party picking after a vote is taken and candidates winning a vote of the people of their party and then going on to the general election... the one votes for the party and they could put someone everybody hates... the other you vote for the individual.. if he is not around, then it is not he party that replaces him...
#1 clean as a whistle! oooh, gee anything is possible - just a few years ago we thought democrats couldn't win an election if it was handed to them and look, they did it - even if in the end it doesn't amount to much! at least propo'l rep'n isn't a new idea that hasn't been tested and used for a LOOONG time in many places, quite successfully. Americans barely understand our current system as it is anyhoo, so it would take a lot of education and a rehaul of our civics courses to get us going in any direction...

personally i'm just tired of chasing candidates, we put too much of our hopes and dreams into one person here or there and in the end, they can't change this gigantic system on their own, particularly when, by the time they have the power to do it, they are entrenched. so i'm for seeking reforms that have less to do with candidates...

#2 i totally agree, i was being sarcastic =D but in many big districts, candidates can be won or lost based on party support , the Lieberman instance was a total anomaly, few people have as much name recog'n as he does and he's been handing out the pork for a while.

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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-27-2007, 11:35 AM   #26
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

Bright eyes....

as for your number one.... why would you think that having proportional respresentation would make it easier to get things done... you would have many more views of the problems and LESS getting done... Lets say there are 6% of the people who are 'green'... do you think they will agree to anything that is not 'green'?? Even if it is needed? They will obstruct all legislation... so now you need to get 50% from the remaining 94% to get something done in that area..

Yes, in many districts around the country that is true... where I am in Houston, almost all districts are 'taken'... they are either dem or rep (unless of course you are indicted because you are an ahole)... the primary election is when the candidates spend all their money.. they know if they win there they are 'in'... it is part of the gerrymandering crap that goes on...


Hmmm... maybe we should pass a law that would require each district to be as close to 50 -50 as possible.. THEN you would see some different candidates because they would have to appeal to the other side in the general.... in my district, the people are running as hard as they can to the right... we get the flaming nuts coming out and winning....

off subject... just because... my State senator is new... he went to the Texas Senate and proposed a bill (or rule, don't know).. it was against 'tradition', he was voited down I believe 36 to 1 (can't remember the total number.. .but he was the only vote for his side)... now, how can you get things done when even YOUR side thinks your a wacko
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-27-2007, 07:22 PM   #27
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

I appreciate all these comments, especially those that know more about election politics in other countries. But I still stand by the simple fact that I would feel better having a bigger choice of people to vote for and actually voting for someone I agree with regardless of their chances of winning than picking from two parties I don't agree with.
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-27-2007, 07:50 PM   #28
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

I want to vote for a person, not a party. Really, can any Republican or Democrat look back at the slate of folks running for the nomination of their party for president in 2004 and say "yep--they are all pretty much the same, any one would be okay." The integrity, judgement, experience, philosophy, and temperment of the candidate, whether for president or city council, is more important to me than his/her party.



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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-27-2007, 07:53 PM   #29
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

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And, the most fetching new parliamentarian from the Communist Party: Vladimir Luxuria!!
What a strange coincidence -- I was just talking to a communist transsexual earlier today. What are the odds!

P.S. I wholeheartedly support the idea of more than two parties having any chance at success, but I don't think it's even slightly likely to happen in the US in the near-future.
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-27-2007, 07:54 PM   #30
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

Person or party! Heck, just something that makes sense I'll vote for. I have yet to find that.
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol
Old 01-28-2007, 01:26 AM   #31
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideol

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Bright eyes....

as for your number one.... why would you think that having proportional respresentation would make it easier to get things done... you would have many more views of the problems and LESS getting done... Lets say there are 6% of the people who are 'green'... do you think they will agree to anything that is not 'green'?? Even if it is needed? They will obstruct all legislation... so now you need to get 50% from the remaining 94% to get something done in that area..

Yes, in many districts around the country that is true... where I am in Houston, almost all districts are 'taken'... they are either dem or rep (unless of course you are indicted because you are an ahole)... the primary election is when the candidates spend all their money.. they know if they win there they are 'in'... it is part of the gerrymandering crap that goes on...


Hmmm... maybe we should pass a law that would require each district to be as close to 50 -50 as possible.. THEN you would see some different candidates because they would have to appeal to the other side in the general.... in my district, the people are running as hard as they can to the right... we get the flaming nuts coming out and winning....

off subject... just because... my State senator is new... he went to the Texas Senate and proposed a bill (or rule, don't know).. it was against 'tradition', he was voited down I believe 36 to 1 (can't remember the total number.. .but he was the only vote for his side)... now, how can you get things done when even YOUR side thinks your a wacko
i didn't say easy (and as it stands, how much are they getting done at all now? remember all of W's agenda, social security, stopping class actions, etc. etc. nada nada nada) but i've been involved in politics for a while, have seen many sides of the scenario, one party domination, close split, and several parties. the first scenario is obvious, people in the dominant party do what they want, even if they offer a token here or there, but most often people get carried away because it's easy to, in the second scenario, not much gets done (like current US congress and president), the third scenarios requires that people work together. there are many current politicians (and lots of us avg joes/janes!)who are frustrated by the party domination and i think some of your concerns are based on the current scenario. if nobody is dominant, then people will have to find common ground, which is usually toward the center, not on the edges, also, there could be multiple parties with similar interests - like a green party will work with the woman's party to fight some bad chemical that affects breast milk, or the enterprise party will work with the independent party to work on trade reforms etc...

so i'm less concerned about the wackos and even if the dominant party is one you support, after a while, the unhappy folks out in the world will get annoyed and start a revolt...if people feel they have representation, it solves part of the disconnect factor we suffer from so strongly in the US. and again, that is just one reform among many that need to be made, which leads me to your second point

i totally agree about the obvious manipulation of districts, i live in a city that is actually 50/50 in registered voters, but we are stuck with a bunch of 60/40 or 70/30 areas so we have near total republican domination - nobody even contested the last election. :P oh! and i think i just validated my own point about the need for proportional representation - so if you live in my area, or one of the 60 or 70 split areas where you are in the minority , you will never get represented (not likely) and feel disenfranchised, bitter, and it's difficult to get your side heard at all...
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology
Old 01-28-2007, 07:29 PM   #32
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Re: Like England, can a third political party come along and challenge the ideology

Anyother concern that is growing amongst many states is the primary system. May is when the primary is held in my state and, by that time, the party nominations are almost a "done deal". Once again, no candidate pool ---- until the general election in November. I am told that the cost of maintaining a campaign is the main reason for many candidates dropping out early (before May).

So much reform is needed.
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