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Old 11-06-2007, 12:28 PM   #121
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well, perhaps the answer is a more involved citizenry - the electeds have run the business of gubmt amuck and we're all paying for it (literally)...

new thread, campaign finance reform!
Government should mandate No TV/radio advertising for elections - debates and forums, internet? better
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:43 PM   #122
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Government should mandate No TV/radio advertising for elections - debates and forums, internet? better
How about free air time - equally divided amongst candidates - the air waves ARE public were given to the broadcasters w/ the exchange that they fleece, delude, pacify serve the public interest...
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:52 PM   #123
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How about free air time - equally divided amongst candidates - the air waves ARE were given to the broadcasters w/ the exchange that they fleece, delude, pacify serve the public interest...
Yes!

Noticed the demo debate week ago was not carried by locals just msnbc which has limited audience - broadcasters not fulfilling their civic duty of informing - prefer to take care of their profits and providing diversions like are you smarter than a 5th grader :confused: - government should get more involved in their business
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:30 PM   #124
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I've been meaning to ask - why are the defenders of the wealthy not paying higher taxes so passionate about your position - if you are in that category - I can understand where you're coming from (self-interest) - if not :confused: why would you want to defend them? How does it affect you...I'm serious, I want to understand the reasoning


And why are those against lifting the minimum wage so strongly against it....it will lift your costs? is that it?
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:50 PM   #125
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I've been meaning to ask - why are the defenders of the wealthy not paying higher taxes so passionate about your position - if you are in that category - I can understand where you're coming from (self-interest) - if not :confused: why would you want to defend them? How does it affect you...I'm serious, I want to understand the reasoning
One reason that I have heard, and can relate to somewhat, is that even if you don't make the top, you may aspire for it. And you feel better knowing that you *could* make it big, even if it never happens.

At some point (and I don't know what that point is), if you take that 'dream' away, you may take people's incentives away. I like the fact that someone from humble beginnings can (and do) make it 'big'.

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And why are those against lifting the minimum wage so strongly against it....it will lift your costs? is that it?
I just feel that in general, free markets work better than govt mandates. There are exceptions, this *may* be one of them, but I'd like to see some evidence of it. I don't have too much problem with costs going up, if there is an overall benefit to society.

But I don't quite buy your argument that up-ing the min wage will make all those workers that much more productive. A wage that is higher than *other* wages will require those seeking that higher wage to be more productive, but I don't see that working if *everyone* gets the same rise.

If bus boys get $X/hr now, and that goes to 1.5X, are all bus boys going to be 1.5X more productive, long term? I have trouble seeing that. And if they were, wouldn't the restaurant owner be able to get by with fewer of these now amazingly productive employees? Wait a minute... if THAT happens, we just widened the gap, didn't we? Some people get paid more, while some are out of a job making ZERO?

Remember what I said about unintended consequences.....

-I'm way beyond my original 3 cents now but that was just a temporary and voluntary 'restraining order' - back to tiling now.


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Old 11-06-2007, 01:51 PM   #126
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Indirect self interest, my first jobs have been with small companies owned by people who's gross receipts qualified them as "rich". Maybe if they were taxed higher they couldn't have hired me on....

I am amazed by some very poor conservatives, who consistently vote against their self interest. I'd like to say it was because of their firmly held beliefs, but upon talking with some of my friends/family in that demographic (warning, anecdotal evidence) they seem to believe they are going to be rich some day. I am confident many are taking a principled stand, they are good people, trust my kids with them types. But I think optimism plays a part here too, and I can't say that's a bad thing.

(Caveat - I'm a McCain/Powell type Republican, which depending on who you ask makes me either a neanderthal or a bleeding heart commie lib).
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:08 PM   #127
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One reason that I have heard, and can relate to somewhat, is that even if you don't make the top, you may aspire for it. And you feel better knowing that you *could* make it big, even if it never happens.

At some point (and I don't know what that point is), if you take that 'dream' away, you may take people's incentives away. I like the fact that someone from humble beginnings can (and do) make it 'big'.

I just feel that in general, free markets work better than govt mandates. There are exceptions, this *may* be one of them, but I'd like to see some evidence of it. I don't have too much problem with costs going up, if there is an overall benefit to society.

But I don't quite buy your argument that up-ing the min wage will make all those workers that much more productive. A wage that is higher than *other* wages will require those seeking that higher wage to be more productive, but I don't see that working if *everyone* gets the same rise.

If bus boys get $X/hr now, and that goes to 1.5X, are all bus boys going to be 1.5X more productive, long term? I have trouble seeing that. And if they were, wouldn't the restaurant owner be able to get by with fewer of these now amazingly productive employees? Wait a minute... if THAT happens, we just widened the gap, didn't we? Some people get paid more, while some are out of a job making ZERO?

Remember what I said about unintended consequences.....

-I'm way beyond my original 3 cents now but that was just a temporary and voluntary 'restraining order' - back to tiling now.


-ERD50
Interesting to hear your take erd.

As far as motivation and money - you can have high paid execs who lose their motivation also - some retire early.
There are more ways than just money to motivate a worker - some of them don't cost anything...
I like marketplace to take care of business also, but we really don't have a true one - if all the illegal workers went back home - I think wages would rise in the industries they work in they would have to attract the worker willing to do the job - also anecdotal observation - lately the roofers and house builders I've seen in the area don't appear to be from south of the border... maybe some the employers are getting scared of the government checking to see if they're doing the right thing....
as far as workers losing jobs - we do have a fairly fluided job market
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:11 PM   #128
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Indirect self interest, my first jobs have been with small companies owned by people who's gross receipts qualified them as "rich". Maybe if they were taxed higher they couldn't have hired me on....

I am amazed by some very poor conservatives, who consistently vote against their self interest. I'd like to say it was because of their firmly held beliefs, but upon talking with some of my friends/family in that demographic (warning, anecdotal evidence) they seem to believe they are going to be rich some day. I am confident many are taking a principled stand, they are good people, trust my kids with them types. But I think optimism plays a part here too, and I can't say that's a bad thing.

(Caveat - I'm a McCain/Powell type Republican, which depending on who you ask makes me either a neanderthal or a bleeding heart commie lib).
I 'm actually an independent with closet old school moderate/liberal progressive republican tendencies... so I could get behind Powell..I've kinda got confused with the changes McCain has been going through though
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:31 PM   #129
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I've been meaning to ask - why are the defenders of the wealthy not paying higher taxes so passionate about your position - if you are in that category - I can understand where you're coming from (self-interest) - if not :confused: why would you want to defend them? How does it affect you...I'm serious, I want to understand the reasoning


And why are those against lifting the minimum wage so strongly against it....it will lift your costs? is that it?
1. I'm in a high bracket, but not the highest. (YET!) But I hope to get there soon. I think the answer is that we're waiting for all the bleeding heart leftists to start paying 80% in taxes like friends in Sweden that they all seem to idolize so much. As soon as you do that, I will start picking up the slack.

2. As for the question on minimum wage, you have to realize that some of us are against any more interference in business from the government. Increasing the minimum wage would just make that worse.
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Old 11-06-2007, 02:50 PM   #130
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1. I'm in a high bracket, but not the highest. (YET!) But I hope to get there soon. I think the answer is that we're waiting for all the bleeding heart leftists to start paying 80% in taxes like friends in Sweden that they all seem to idolize so much. As soon as you do that, I will start picking up the slack.

2. As for the question on minimum wage, you have to realize that some of us are against any more interference in business from the government. Increasing the minimum wage would just make that worse.
thanks...congrats on your success..are your friends in Sweden unhappy..are they trying to leave... I was reading a little while ago that Sweden rates near the top in happiness and healthiness (although I wouldn't know it from watch Bergman films)....US is down the list some

Lets face it business in effect and practice is in a partnership with government on many levels
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:39 PM   #131
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I neither oppose or support increasing taxes on the rich. With that said, I do not believe raising the taxes for the wealthy really does anything to them. Many, if not most, wealthy are in the enviable position to almost be able to dictate their wages. If the government decides to raise the taxes on these people x amount of dollars it would not be to difficult for them to raise the prices of whatever product they sell to compensate. The end result is an increase in prices for everyone. For a company that sells millions of widgets per year the increase might only be .01 per item, but either way the middle class and poor are still the people who are paying the taxes, not the rich. So in reality an increase in taxes on the rich is an increase of taxes for the middle class and poor.

I do not support an increase of the minimum wage for reason already stated in this thread. It does nothing for those making minimum wage, because the companies they work for must increase the price of products they sell to compensate for the wage increase. Not only does this affect those making near minimum wage it also has a ripple effect. If you are making $2.00 more than the minimum wage before it is increased, but after an increase you are only making .50 more than minimum, you are not going to be as motivated until you receive a pay raise. This further compounds the purchase power problems. During my last year as a police officer the state raised the minimum wage. This brought those making at or near minimum very close to the wages of security guards. Now the security companies had to give pay increases in order to keep they guards. The resulting increase brought the security guards very close to the starting pay at my agency. That became a joke around the department, but we were not due for contract negotiations for another two years. It's simple economics, if a country has more money things will cost more. If people make more money they will have to pay more for the goods they want to purchase. We could see this happen around January 1st every year when I lived near military bases. That is when the housing allowances would adjust for the military members. Amazingly that is also when the rents would adjust for the apartments around the military bases. You could tell what ranks the management companies wanted to live they by comparing the rents to the housing allowances.
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:53 PM   #132
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There are many ways to interpret facts. You mention only the numbers that support your opinion.

If a guy makes $10M/year and pays 23% in taxes he still has $7.7M left. Do you really think that it would be a bad thing if he had to pay say $3.3M and had to live on only $6.7M/year?

I think that an upper tax bracket in the 39-44% range is reasonable. I wouldn't go much above that.

OK. You call me a liar, then say doing that is not an ad hominum attack. As a retired CPA who used to get paid for giving my word, I resent that.

But, don't believe me. Here is an article from Kiplinger's Magazine. They happen to present the same data. Call them liar's too.

The data is the data. It seems you do not want to accept the implications of that data---"well, you mention only numbers that support your opinion". Sorry, these are the only numbers out there. You don't mention any IRS supplied numbers to support your apparent bias and faulty thinking.


From Kiplinger's Magazine:
"TAXES
How Do You Rank as a Taxpayer?
The latest statistics show a growing income gap between rich and poor and a far wider gap between the tax burden carried by different economic classes. Where do you stand as a money maker and a taxpayer?
By Kevin McCormally
November 6, 2007


The idea of keeping up with the Joneses is so 1950s. And forget the Carnegies, the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts. These days, we want to keep up with the Gateses and the Buffetts, the Allens and the Waltons.
So maybe that's a stretch. But do you ever wonder how your income stacks up against your fellow citizens?
New data show that an income of $30,881 or more puts you in the top half of the class. Earning about twice that much -- $62,068 -- earns you a spot among the top 25% of all wage earners. You crack the elite top 10% if you earn more than $103,912.
And $364,657 buys top bragging rights: Earn that much or more and you're among the top 1% of all American earners. Together, the top 1% earn a full 21% of the income reported to the IRS -- far more than the 13% of total income reported by the bottom 50% of earners.
Here's another powerful statistic about the top 1% of earners: They pay a whopping 39% of all federal income taxes. The bottom 50% pay just 3% of all income taxes.
Income here is defined as adjusted gross income (AGI) reported on income tax returns. AGI is basically salary plus investment, rental and business income minus investment losses and expenses such as alimony paid, contributions to retirement plans, moving expenses and a few other costs.
These statistics come from just-released data based on 2005 tax returns and do not distinguish between single and joint returns. (Note that these figures focus on income taxes and do not include Social Security taxes. Lower-earning taxpayers pay a far higher percentage of their income in Social Security taxes than do higher-earning taxpayers.)
How does your income stack up? What percentage of the nation's tax burden falls on your shoulders? Kiplinger has developed an on-line calculator to instantly deliver the answers. So try our calculator and find out.
The following table shows the income categories, the percentage of income earned by earners in that category and tax burden carried by members of that category.
BREAKDOWN OF INCOME AND TAXES PAID BY CATEGORYIncome Category2005 AGIPercent of all incomePercent of income taxes paidTop 1%Over $364,65721%39%Top 5%Over $145,28336%60%Top 10%Over $103,91246%70%Top 25%Over $62,06868%86%Top 50%Over $30,88187%97%Bottom 50%Under $30,88213%3%
Source: IRS"
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:57 PM   #133
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thanks...congrats on your success..are your friends in Sweden unhappy..are they trying to leave... I was reading a little while ago that Sweden rates near the top in happiness and healthiness (although I wouldn't know it from watch Bergman films)....US is down the list some

Lets face it business in effect and practice is in a partnership with government on many levels

Are the not at the top of the list for suicide?
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:04 PM   #134
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I've been meaning to ask - why are the defenders of the wealthy not paying higher taxes so passionate about your position -

:confused: why would you want to defend them?
You seem to take it as gospel that to be wealthy is inherently "bad". It is a condition that just inherently "must" be "punished" with higher taxes. That the wealthy, just by the fact of being wealthy, automatically are of such disreputable class that they need "defending".

"Why do you defend the wealthy?" you demand to know in total apparent disbelief.

Why do you feel that way? Why is defending one class something that must be explained to others. Why are you such an elitist snob that looks down on this class of people as substandard, illigetimate, and needing of punishment?

I would like to know why you practice such discrimination?
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:08 PM   #135
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Interesting to hear your take erd.

As far as motivation and money - you can have high paid execs who lose their motivation also - some retire early.
There are more ways than just money to motivate a worker - some of them don't cost anything...
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure how it changes anything. Until the govt finds a way to tax 'job satisfaction' .

I imagine there are some former highly paid execs on this board that would consider ER a 'different' form of motivation, rather than a lack of it.

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I like marketplace to take care of business also, but we really don't have a true one - if all the illegal workers went back home - I think wages would rise in the industries they work in they would have to attract the worker willing to do the job
I don't want to get into an 'illegal' worker debate, but if that is your belief then we should address the problem rather than the symptom. More buckets on the floor really does not 'fix' a leaky roof.

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Old 11-06-2007, 04:23 PM   #136
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thanks...congrats on your success..are your friends in Sweden unhappy..are they trying to leave... I was reading a little while ago that Sweden rates near the top in happiness and healthiness (although I wouldn't know it from watch Bergman films)....US is down the list some

Lets face it business in effect and practice is in a partnership with government on many levels
1. I've seen how government works, I don't want to be in ANY partnership with it.

2. Funny that you commented on the Sweden point. I think the reason for their supposed high level of happiness is that there are so many people sitting around doing nothing (and getting paid for it) what's not to be happy about? Go ask a professional if they like their work environment there? I sat on a long flight next to a Swedish doctor. It was saddening for me to hear the story of a man who spent so much time working towards his career and hardly receives what would be considered a living wage for it. If that's your idea of a utopia, I don't know what to say?
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:30 PM   #137
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1. I'm in a high bracket, but not the highest. (YET!) But I hope to get there soon. I think the answer is that we're waiting for all the bleeding heart leftists to start paying 80% in taxes like friends in Sweden that they all seem to idolize so much. As soon as you do that, I will start picking up the slack.

2. As for the question on minimum wage, you have to realize that some of us are against any more interference in business from the government. Increasing the minimum wage would just make that worse.

Ok, I have an honest question too...

For the high income bracketers and/or tax , such as yourself... Say you don't support increased minimum wages (i'm actually wavering on this one, i can't believe it myself!)... What about the folks who work hard - often back breaking work, work more than one job, 2 plus income homes that still can't get by? Is that their fault? Even if one thinks that - in the end, we all end up paying the ER bill, or bankruptcy costs for people who can't manage money (poor education, or just plain not making it?) or no/sucky health insurance...

To me it doesn't make sense to starve some people - rationalize the starvation ideologically (they should have worked harder, I'm not responsible) ... yet we all still end up paying. So I'm wondering about the pay now (higher wages, mandated or not) versus starve and pay later?

In CA, prop 13 has starved our schools (hey, buffet even thinks it was a dumb idea). Now we're all paying with less well educated workers - and even businesses are getting involved and saying sheesh, we have to fix this mess. So again, I say, pay now or pay later?
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:45 PM   #138
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One of the problems about talking about money being a motivator is that it is and it isn't.... at some point it does motivate, but then it becomes a demotivator... and if someone stays at the same level, then over time he becomes demotivated (ie, another year without a raise... why should I do good work)..

I remember one exec who insisted money was not a motivator... I said stop paying everybody and see how many people show up for work tomorrow...

But the real graph is one that comes back on itself... I can't draw it well but I do remember it back during economics...

So, think of someone who is not making a lot... tell him he can work more hours and get more income and he will do it because it increases his total earnings... but eventually he reaches a point where he does not want to work more hours for the same wage and will 'demand' a higher rate... well, now he is making more money so he does not want to work all those hours.. so the graph comes back on itself .... here is a VERY CRUDE view of hours and income.... (well, the chart does not want to work... so.. even worse...

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Old 11-06-2007, 04:53 PM   #139
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1. I've seen how government works, I don't want to be in ANY partnership with it.

2. Funny that you commented on the Sweden point. I think the reason for their supposed high level of happiness is that there are so many people sitting around doing nothing (and getting paid for it) what's not to be happy about?
1) Being a mercenary, I'll work for either corporations or government, as long as they pay my rate. Large corporations can easily be as inefficient as government.
2) Swedes are sitting around doing nothing? I want some of that.

Per capita income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:00 PM   #140
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OK, this min-wage debate can get pretty heated. Anyone up for a little tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor?

Here we go - from wiki (emphasis mine):

Minimum wage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the economics profession, however - and particularly among American economists - opinions of the minimum wage tend to be less favorable. A 2000 survey by Dan Fuller and Doris Geide-Stevenson reports that of a sample of 308 American Economic Association economists, 45.6% fully agreed with the statement, "a minimum wage increases unemployment among young and unskilled workers", 27.9% agreed under certain conditions, and 26.5% disagreed.[9]


Ok, there you have it. 73.5% of the 'experts' agreed that minimum wage increases can increase unemployment among young and unskilled workers', the very ones hurt most by unemployment!

WE HAVE CONSENSUS - There is a direct correlation, and the data is unequivocal... THE DEBATE IS OVER!!!!



Oh sorry, maybe only liberals can use that line. Carry on, more serious post to follow.

-ERD50
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