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Old 08-10-2016, 08:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
True, but if you apply silicone liberally to the hole and underside of the carriage bolt before bolting that should mitigate water intrusion.
......for about 3 months.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:40 AM   #22
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My idea was to screw the plate to the underside of the deck. Not to clamp the wood between the plate and the hinge. This would not require removing the foam or vinyl. The hinge do provide essentially a point load that could be the only problem. This distributes the load across a larger area and thru multiple screws into the wood. If the plan is to clamp the wood between the hinge and the plate, then the plate only needs to be slightly larger than the hinge itself. But there is already a problem in this area. This is why I suggested the flush plate.

I hope this makes sense.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I agree with others that you really need to get it apart somewhat, to better understand the problem. The solution really depends on what you've got to work with.

If it turns out like this, I think the metal plate backing suggested by CRLLS is a very good solution, distributes those stresses over a much larger area:



But if the plate gets clamped by the hinge bolts, I'm not sure you need any other screws in the plate. The hings bolts should keep everything from moving? Again, depends on what you find though.

-ERD50
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:44 AM   #23
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......for about 3 months.
I dunno about that... it is a common solution for roof penetrations (like antenna mounts) and IME seldom a problem.... and roofs get a lot more water than a boat that is garaged.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:52 AM   #24
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I dunno about that... it is a common solution for roof penetrations (like antenna mounts) and IME seldom a problem.
Roofs don't pound through waves at 20mph, flexing the entire way, or have dirty, mildew-ey, soft vinyl as a substrate.

Believe me, I have re-worked enough silicone "fixed" repairs on OPB (other peoples boats) to know. Never-mind the fact that once you put silicone on a surface, NOTHING else will ever adhere there well.

Silicone has its place/uses, for sure. However, irrespective of the fact that everyone uses it, silicone is a HUGE no-no on (well-found) boats. Telltales could certainly be all of the wood rot problems on all of the low-end manufacturer's boats after a inordinately short time.

No silicone EVER on my boats.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:53 AM   #25
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Ok, we agree to disagree.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:54 AM   #26
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Ok, we agree to disagree.
All good.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by CRLLS View Post
My idea was to screw the plate to the underside of the deck. Not to clamp the wood between the plate and the hinge. This would not require removing the foam or vinyl. The hinge do provide essentially a point load that could be the only problem. This distributes the load across a larger area and thru multiple screws into the wood. If the plan is to clamp the wood between the hinge and the plate, then the plate only needs to be slightly larger than the hinge itself. But there is already a problem in this area. This is why I suggested the flush plate.

I hope this makes sense.
Yes, I follow you now. I was thinking the hinges came in through the top, but the photo looks like they attach underneath everything. Here's a sketch of what I think you are proposing - a big plate, screwed in many places (probably best to go the full width of the deck), thick enough to be tapped for the hinge bolts (or weld nuts).

I didn't show the screws, and I guess the upholstery probably wraps around and is stapled to the bottom side of the decking, covering some of this, but that wasn't so easy to detail in a sketch, so that is left to the imagination.

But if the top and bottom of the deck is accessible after peeling back the upholstery (if that is necessary), then a plate top and bottom might be a good option, with countersunk flush bolt heads on top, nuts on the 'inside/bottom'. Hard to say until we can see the detail.

-ERD50
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:09 AM   #28
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I also had a Stingray like the one pictured which I recently sold, so I cant look at it but I thought it had a piano hinge the whole length of the sundeck. So that is a possibility for you to get some more bite on the wood.

Nope, two small hinges that are maybe 5 or 6 inches wide by 3 inches on each section....
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:15 AM   #29
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Yes, I follow you now. I was thinking the hinges came in through the top, but the photo looks like they attach underneath everything. Here's a sketch of what I think you are proposing - a big plate, screwed in many places (probably best to go the full width of the deck), thick enough to be tapped for the hinge bolts (or weld nuts).

I didn't show the screws, and I guess the upholstery probably wraps around and is stapled to the bottom side of the decking, covering some of this, but that wasn't so easy to detail in a sketch, so that is left to the imagination.

But if the top and bottom of the deck is accessible after peeling back the upholstery (if that is necessary), then a plate top and bottom might be a good option, with countersunk flush bolt heads on top, nuts on the 'inside/bottom'. Hard to say until we can see the detail.

-ERD50

Yes, this is the other solution that I was thinking about... having a plate welded to the hinge that has holes in it to grab the good wood...


I just took a pic of a couple of the screws... they have a different head, but similar threads... you can see the 'debris' in the threads of the one that pulled out... there is no extra where there could be a nut in the wood for it to screw into...

Trying to get pic to my email...
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:24 AM   #30
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Yes, this is the other solution that I was thinking about... having a plate welded to the hinge that has holes in it to grab the good wood...
If you don't fix the root of the problem, whatever it may be - water seepage or other, the "good wood" will turn out just like the first, eventually. But maybe that'll be another 11 years and it won't matter to you any longer......
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:47 AM   #31
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If you want a permanent solution, remove the vinyl and foam, cut out a pressure treated piece of plywood using the old one as a stencil, and then put it all back together.

It is possible the vinyl is leaking the water, something to look at carefully before reusing it.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:41 AM   #32
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-ERD50 Exactly as you showed. The "plate fix" still requires good wood though. Leaky Vinyl is par for the course as every seam will leak. They are usually just sewn and not sealed. Every wet swim suit will soak thru the seam, into the foam and eventually rot the wood.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:55 PM   #33
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If it works, here is a pic of the screws...

The bigger one is the one that came from the hinge... the other I took off of the lift...

As you might be able to see, there is wood in the threads... the wood goes to the top of the bolt, so there was nothing in the wood to hold it like some have suggested...

I did probe the wood without taking it to bare wood and it seems very solid... I know people have talked about rotted wood, but there is no indication that is the problem... I think it was just the wrong application of screw on a large sun deck that is not that light....
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:23 PM   #34
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I think it was just the wrong application of screw on a large sun deck that is not that light....
+1. Grabbing a bolt rather than a screw on the assembly line would be a likely scenario.

You should be able to find a stainless screw of similar size at most any hardware store. Here's a link to a range of fix possibilities for the stripped-out hole:
Stripped Screw Repair in Wood Applications | DIY House Help
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:19 PM   #35
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I think the easiest solution would be to get SS or brass wood screws as large in diameter as will fit through the hinge and as long as you can given the thickness of the deck material and the hinge... hopefully those will bite into the decking material enough to do the trick. If the hole is rounded out and too loose you can stuff the hole with some folded toothpicks to provide more bite.

Alternatively you could get some fasteners that fit your bolts like the piece on the right in the attached picture and install those into the wood (looks like they install with an hex wrench) and hopefully that should work.

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Old 08-10-2016, 09:25 PM   #36
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+1. Grabbing a bolt rather than a screw on the assembly line would be a likely scenario.

You should be able to find a stainless screw of similar size at most any hardware store. Here's a link to a range of fix possibilities for the stripped-out hole:
Stripped Screw Repair in Wood Applications | DIY House Help
But all of the screws are the same, so I think it is not just picking the wrong bolt...

Thanks for the link... I will see what they recommend...
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:38 PM   #37
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Over the years I have used " Bondoglass " to fill / rebuild rotted wood fiberglass parts on boats and rv's where strength is not real critical. The stuff is polyester resin, with chopped fiblerglass as the filler. ( Regular bondo uses talk power as the filler IIRC ). On the tee nuts, finding some made of stainless steel may be a challange. Maybe McMaster Carr supply ?
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Old 08-11-2016, 05:07 AM   #38
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Over the years I have used " Bondoglass " to fill / rebuild rotted wood fiberglass parts on boats and rv's where strength is not real critical. The stuff is polyester resin, with chopped fiblerglass as the filler. ( Regular bondo uses talk power as the filler IIRC ). On the tee nuts, finding some made of stainless steel may be a challange. Maybe McMaster Carr supply ?
I have bought 316 stainless tee nuts and 316 stainless threaded inserts from McMaster in the past.
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:40 AM   #39
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Just to be clear - Tee-nuts really should go on the opposite side of the decking from the hinge plate, like any other nut/bolt combo. The advantage of the Tee-nut is that it will be flush if the proper length bolt is used.

From wiki: The flanges of T-nuts often have hooks or serrations on the prongs that dig into a wooden work piece as the bolt is tightened from the opposite side of the piece, providing better retention.

The prongs of the Tee-nut will need enough good material to grab or they won't be very strong. But if he can get to the other side, and there is good decking material, those could work.

But if I was able to get to the other side, I think I'd use a flat head bolt and large washers, and use a nut on the hinge plate side, assuming there is room for a nut there. Otherwise, the large plate that CLLS suggested might be far better.

-ERD50
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:47 AM   #40
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I think the easiest solution would be to get SS or brass wood screws as large in diameter as will fit through the hinge and as long as you can given the thickness of the deck material and the hinge... hopefully those will bite into the decking material enough to do the trick. If the hole is rounded out and too loose you can stuff the hole with some folded toothpicks to provide more bite.

Alternatively you could get some fasteners that fit your bolts like the piece on the right in the attached picture and install those into the wood (looks like they install with an hex wrench) and hopefully that should work.



Now this looks like a good option... easier for me to do and if it does not work can go to the large plate on the hinge... as it will not destroy anything that the other option would need...


Will have to get some help in getting the deck off and then it will be much easier to get a look at the holes and also see how much good wood I have...



Edit... what are these called? Was trying to look at them but cannot find them online...
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