Looking for Perspective Regarding College

[jt999]

Hi - I am 48 and my spouse is 46. Our son is 17 and is a top notch student. He has really worked his tail off and he has the academic stats to get into just about any university, including some Ivies.

He's primarily interested in some different areas of engineering for undergrad (has not made up his mind exactly) as he's very gifted in the STEM domain but he is also very interested in business. He also has his own brokerage account and he's learned a lot (with some of my advice) about personal finance/investing.

I'm trying to provide him with guidance - My wife and I believe that an engineering undergrad is the best way to go as he can always get his MBA if and when he wants to transition into different roles or management.

I'm finding it incredibly frustrating that none of the Ivies we've looked at offer any type of Merit Awards. They are all needs-based - is that correct? At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance.

So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house? I want college to be a challenging and enriching experience for him but also want to make the decision that leaves us all on sound financial footing. I don't think I can stomach ~300K for a 4 year degree (and heaven help us if it's a 5 year program) and I don't want him saddled with loans (under any circumstance). We do have a sizable amount saved in 529 but still have a very significant gap.

I feel very conflicted. It was always our goal to help both our kids obtain a marketable undergrad degree (1 down, 1 to go) but the numbers this round are staggering. In a sense, I want him to be able to go to college wherever he wants (as we believe he's earned it) but also want the price tag to be doable for all of us (and by doable, I don't mean the admission's office ability to pay). It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years.


I would appreciate any advice or perspective (even better, if it's from folks who have gone through before). Thank You.

[pjigar]

I always believed that most states have some good universities that provide good education and good job prospects. What Ivies provide is network and connections. If the major don't need connections eventually, e.g. start a tech company, finance, investment banking, politics, etc. then there is no need to go to Ivies. I only know one Ivy graduate and and it has not made any material impact on his career compared to mine and I went to a state college. My understanding about Ivy college value is based on my conversations with him and reading other anecdote stories so take it with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I have always set expectations with my kids that they are attending a public in-state university. In extraordinary situation if they go out of state then I only contribute in-state tuition.

[joeea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 At 400K annual income (thanks to 40% increase in the last couple years), it's a slam dunk that we will not qualify for ANY type of financial assistance. So, how do you steer your child who has worked so hard to look at universities that offer more merit based scholarships so attending school does not put my wife and I OR him in the poor house?

You make 400k per year and you think college expenses would put you in the poor house?

That's confusing.

My wife and I never made anywhere near that much, yet we funded our two sons' education through 529s and cash flow. Both graduated with no debt, no loans.

I guess if you can't afford it, tell your child to find a less expensive school, or one that offers scholarships. Some families decide that a Community College is a good way to save money for 2 years, before transferring to a 4-year school. Sometimes attending an in-state university or a commuting school can save a lot.

Quote:

It will also likely derail any dreams of FIRE'ing in 4-5 years.

Ah, now I see. So it's not really the poor house, it's more that you might have to keep working past your early 50s.

Sounds like your family needs to sit down together and decide what is most important. Then, you all can plan how to best face the consequences of your decision.

Good luck.

[jt999]

Our income was substantially below that amount for many years - only within the last year or so has it increased to this level...Just in time to over-pay for college We call an 8 work day a half-day these days. Thank You for the advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeea You make 400k per year and you think college expenses would put you in the poor house? That's confusing. My wife and I never made anywhere near that much, yet we funded our two sons' education through 529s and cash flow. Both graduated with no debt, no loans. I guess if you can't afford it, tell your child to find a less expensive school, or one that offers scholarships.

[jt999]

Also, wanting and being able to work well into our 50's are two different things these days. There are very few over 50+ who are not it Top Mgmt. at my company (and I am not) so we're really focused on hyper-saving while times are good. Paying 70K/annually for college is akin to a tug of war with what we're trying to achieve. As I said, we do have a good portion in 529 but would still require some significant cash flow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeea You make 400k per year and you think college expenses would put you in the poor house? That's confusing. My wife and I never made anywhere near that much, yet we funded our two sons' education through 529s and cash flow. Both graduated with no debt, no loans. I guess if you can't afford it, tell your child to find a less expensive school, or one that offers scholarships. Some families decide that a Community College is a good way to save money for 2 years, before transferring to a 4-year school. Sometimes attending an in-state university or a commuting school can save a lot. Ah, now I see. So it's not really the poor house, it's more that you might have to keep working past your early 50s. Sounds like your family needs to sit down together and decide what is most important. Then, you all can plan how to best face the consequences of your decision. Good luck.

[joeea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 Paying 70K/annually for college is akin to a tug of war with what we're trying to achieve.

I can see that. Every family has things they would like to achieve. It's hard to achieve everything at once. Sometimes dreams must face realities.

As I wrote, the time is now to sit down with your son and decide what is most important, so you can weigh the alternatives within that context.

Good luck.

[Philliefan33]

With your income, you will not get any need-based aid. If you don’t want to pay full price for college, your son will have to find a college where his stats are at the top end of the applicants and earn him some merit-based scholarships.

Get busy on college websites. Most have calculators where you input income and student stats to get an estimate of net price. Look for guaranteed scholarships; for instance when my DDs were applying to colleges, Pitt guaranteed significant discount for students with SAT scores of 1450 (m+v) and Alabama offered free tuition for students with a threshold SAT score.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjigar I always believed that most states have some good universities that provide good education and good job prospects. What Ivies provide is network and connections. If the major don't need connections eventually, e.g. start a tech company, finance, investment banking, politics, etc. then there is no need to go to Ivies. I only know one Ivy graduate and and it has not made any material impact on his career compared to mine and I went to a state college. My understanding about Ivy college value is based on my conversations with him and reading other anecdote stories so take it with a grain of salt. ....

Similar story here.... my BIL and a work colleague each had MBAs from different Ivy League schools and my MBA was from a good non-Ivy.... my career trajectory was similar to BIL and better than my work colleauge.

I'm not sure if it is still true, but I recall BIL once saying that if you were accepted by an Ivy League school and they really wanted you that they would find a way to entice you to go there.... they have multi-billion dollar endowments after all.

That said, over the 4 year that tuition costs $300k you'll earn $1.2m so I think you can afford it if it is a life priority for you.

[Luck_Club]

You are correct IVIES have no merit based aid.

Are they worth it? Tough call.

For STEM fields, they may offer the incubation ground for getting into the next hot start up of some sort, which that opportunity may not be present at some or most state schools. Certain schools will be natural feeders into certain companies ie Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, ETC. Getting into those companies from lesser known engineering programs will be more difficult in my opinion.

I tried to focus my kids on looking at schools from the employer recruiting that took place on campus, and let that drive the choice.

For top notch engineering schools, I don't think you are going to get in under that $70K number. MIT, Georgia Tech, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, University of Maryland, UPENN, DREXEL, (not a safe area in my opinion). The delta between MIT and University of Maryland is $80K over 4 years.

Financial aid planning is too late for this year, but you could investigate some type of a differed comp plan for next year. Most of the financial aid from the ivies comes from school grants (discounts), as opposed to Federal dollars.

Good luck and congratulations on crushing the income front!

[jt999]

Thank You. This confirms some other information I have read recently. I found a website that lists the colleges and the % of students receiving Merit Aid as well as the Average Merit Aid Received. There is another site that provide Net Price Paid but I find this less helpful as I have no idea how many students received financial aid. I had read that some Ivies offer some financial aid (even up to 250K income level).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philliefan33 With your income, you will not get any need-based aid. If you don’t want to pay full price for college, your son will have to find a college where his stats are at the top end of the applicants and earn him some merit-based scholarships. Get busy on college websites. Most have calculators where you input income and student stats to get an estimate of net price. Look for guaranteed scholarships; for instance when my DDs were applying to colleges, Pitt guaranteed significant discount for students with SAT scores of 1450 (m+v) and Alabama offered free tuition for students with a threshold SAT score.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck_Club ....For top notch engineering schools, I don't think you are going to get in under that $70K number. MIT, Georgia Tech, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, University of Maryland, UPENN, DREXEL, (not a safe area in my opinion). The delta between MIT and University of Maryland is $80K over 4 years. ...

+1 DNephew attended RPI and I would add RPI to the list... but RPI annual cost of attendance is $74k undergrad so not any different at all... about the same as Dartmouth. Luckily DN had a full scholarship for tuition so that cut his costs dramatically.

[MichaelB]

Another option OP has is to decide on a specific amount of money for use for college, and let the prospective student make the choice of spending that, or borrowing to spend more. For example, the OP could offer 100% of the cost of the program in the state university system. The student decides if attending an alternate programl is worth the extra cost.

Some universities are better than others. The programs are more rigorous and competitive, and students have the opportunity to develop more advanced critical thinking skills. Not all students, however, can or will take advantage of that. If they do, the cost of the programs can be more than offset by enhanced future earnings potential. The key question is not what’s the cost of the program, it’s “is the student prepared to take advantage of all the program offers?”.

[ivinsfan]

I don't know what you should do, but I do know a couple things you shouldn't do.

Just had a thread here where poster had talked positively about a higher priced uni, had their child apply and get accepted and then started balking at the cost. They eventually settle on a cheaper school but hard feeling were involved. Make up your mind NOW about how much you are willing to pay.

Secondly if you go the IVY route student debt is not poison. It's one thing to come out of a local state uni with 70K in debt quite another to exit an ivy or top rate engineering school with the same debt.

Third from what I read here engineering is kind of a funky major with some enjoying and thriving in the job and more then a few realizing it's not the career they wanted or envisioned. Are you an engineer, just curious as I think he needs to make that decision after he starts schools and samples some course work. I absolutely would not close the door on a business degree coupled with some computer programming skills I have two that did Carlson School of Management in IS and they are killing it..didn't even need to get master's they are 40.

And finally no offense to your DS, who I'm sure is a great kid, but academics alone will not open the door to IVY league schools. Everyone has academics it's the other stuff that tips the scale.

Good Luck and yes you work hard for your money and get to decide where it goes including how much you pay for college educations.

[jt999]

That is the exact approach we took with my daughter and it worked out. She had a 1/2 tuition athletic scholarship to a good private school. She could also go to a good state school that would be considerably less but we could still afford if she decided she did not want to continue with her sport. She chose the private under the pretense that you have to stick with it OR else, transfer.

The numbers are much different (higher) this time around, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB Another option OP has is to decide on a specific amount of money for use for college, and let the prospective student make the choice of spending that, or borrowing to spend more. For example, the OP could offer 100% of the cost of the program in the state university system. The student decides if attending an alternate programl is worth the extra cost. Some universities are better than others. The programs are more rigorous and competitive, and students have the opportunity to develop more advanced critical thinking skills. Not all students, however, can or will take advantage of that. If they do, the cost of the programs can be more than offset by enhanced future earnings potential. The key question is not what’s the cost of the program, it’s “is the student prepared to take advantage of all the program offers?”.

[jt999]

I'm not an engineer but I work in IT. Systems Analyst/Project Mgmt. type work. We are not under any impression that getting into an Ivy is a slam dunk even with his stats. He does have extra-curricular, community service, etc.

I already engrained into his mind that it's important that you like what you do - I tell him it's equally as important as the financial rewards. His goal should be to strive to find both. Making a ton of money and hating your job is no way to go through life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan I don't know what you should do, but I do know a couple things you shouldn't do. Just had a thread here where poster had talked positively about a higher priced uni, had their child apply and get accepted and then started balking at the cost. They eventually settle on a cheaper school but hard feeling were involved. Make up your mind NOW about how much you are willing to pay. Secondly if you go the IVY route student debt is not poison. It's one thing to come out of a local state uni with 70K in debt quite another to exit an ivy or top rate engineering school with the same debt. Third from what I read here engineering is kind of a funky major with some enjoying and thriving in the job and more then a few realizing it's not the career they wanted or envisioned. Are you an engineer, just curious as I think he needs to make that decision after he starts schools and samples some course work. And finally no offense to your DS, who I'm sure is a great kid, but academics alone will not open the door to IVY league schools. Everyone has academics it's the other stuff that tips the scale. Good Luck and yes you work hard for your money and get to decide where it goes including how much you pay for college educations.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivinsfan I don't know what you should do, but I do know a couple things you shouldn't do. Just had a thread here where poster had talked positively about a higher priced uni, had their child apply and get accepted and then started balking at the cost. They eventually settle on a cheaper school but hard feeling were involved. Make up your mind NOW about how much you are willing to pay. Secondly if you go the IVY route student debt is not poison. It's one thing to come out of a local state uni with 70K in debt quite another to exit an ivy or top rate engineering school with the same debt. Third from what I read here engineering is kind of a funky major with some enjoying and thriving in the job and more then a few realizing it's not the career they wanted or envisioned. Are you an engineer, just curious as I think he needs to make that decision after he starts schools and samples some course work. I absolutely would not close the door on a business degree coupled with some computer programming skills I have two that did Carlson School of Management in IS and they are killing it..didn't even need to get master's they are 40. And finally no offense to your DS, who I'm sure is a great kid, but academics alone will not open the door to IVY league schools. Everyone has academics it's the other stuff that tips the scale. Good Luck and yes you work hard for your money and get to decide where it goes including how much you pay for college educations.

+1 great insights.... it seems to me to be fair to tell your DS that you'll pony up $200k (or whatever you are comfortable with given your plans and considering what you paid for your other child) and the rest is on him to use savings or loans .... then you'll see how interested he is in attending a top tier school... if things go well for you financially you can always later decide to help him with his loans.

[ugeauxgirl]

We are in a similar situation- well sort of. We don't make nearly as much as you do. We are retiring next year at 48 and 56, and have 2 boys 12 and 15. The 15 year old has just gone to the state STEM high school and is thinking of medicine- the youngest is thinking engineering.

We have told them that we will be funding a state college education. Since they are in public schools and all the other kids want to go to the big state flagship School, this has been fine so far. The oldest is about to meet kids who are interested in ivy league schools, and that's fine, but we've made it clear that when the 529 is empty we will not be paying. We have explained what college debt looks like and why it's better that they don't go that route, and I've shown them the scholarship tables at every school in the state. Oldest will qualify for some scholarships based on test scores already.

They are interested because I also told them they could keep anything remaining in the 529 after graduation. The oldest even brought up the military as a method of paying for med school- which might be a good idea....

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt999 I'm not an engineer but I work in IT. Systems Analyst/Project Mgmt. type work. We are not under any impression that getting into an Ivy is a slam dunk even with his stats. He does have extra-curricular, community service, etc. I already engrained into his mind that it's important that you like what you do - I tell him it's equally as important as the financial rewards. His goal should be to strive to find both. Making a ton of money and hating your job is no way to go through life.

Feeling locked into a job you hate is nothing but a recipe for stress.

Another thought I had about IVY is that how realistic is the actual cost of attentence. If you are in school with kids of 1%'s and not one yourself, how extra money would you end up spending to be "one of the crowd"? It seems like it could run the cost of school.

[jt999]

When he wakes up, I am going to tell him that if he can find a good school where he can get a full or majority scholarship, he can keep what's left in the 529 when he graduates. I just have to make sure my daughter is not around when discussing as I'm using the 7K left in her 529 to help fund his college.

Knowing him, he will take me up on that and then buy a corvette the day after he graduates...EVERYBODY WINS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugeauxgirl We are in a similar situation- well sort of. We don't make nearly as much as you do. We are retiring next year at 48 and 56, and have 2 boys 12 and 15. The 15 year old has just gone to the state STEM high school and is thinking of medicine- the youngest is thinking engineering. We have told them that we will be funding a state college education. Since they are in public schools and all the other kids want to go to the big state flagship School, this has been fine so far. The oldest is about to meet kids who are interested in ivy league schools, and that's fine, but we've made it clear that when the 529 is empty we will not be paying. We have explained what college debt looks like and why it's better that they don't go that route, and I've shown them the scholarship tables at every school in the state. Oldest will qualify for some scholarships based on test scores already. They are interested because I also told them they could keep anything remaining in the 529 after graduation. The oldest even brought up the military as a method of paying for med school- which might be a good idea....

[ivinsfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugeauxgirl We are in a similar situation- well sort of. We don't make nearly as much as you do. We are retiring next year at 48 and 56, and have 2 boys 12 and 15. The 15 year old has just gone to the state STEM school and is thinking of medicine- the youngest is thinking engineering. We have told them that we will be funding a state college education. Since they are in public schools and all the other kids want to go to the big state flagship School, this has been fine so far. The oldest is about to meet kids who are interested in ivy league schools, and that's fine, but we've made it clear that when the 529 is empty we will not be paying. We have explained what college debt looks like and why it's better that they don't go that route, and I've shown them the scholarship tables at every school in the state. Oldest will qualify for some scholarships based on test scores already. They are interested because I also told them they could keep anything remaining in the 529 after graduation. The oldest even brought up the military as a method of paying for med school- which might be a good idea....

for parents thinking that the fall of senior year is early enough to talk about college, ( and they do exist) read this and take notes...keep your child informed very early on. I had a niece who going into senior year decided the art program at Berkeley would be fun. In her mind the only problem was she didn't have a good artwork to submit. Her solution? Take a gap year, make lots of art pieces and then presto she's at Berkeley doing an art major..