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09-26-2011, 12:19 PM
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#61
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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It's an interesting example, but I don't understand it. Omitting that second comma does not, in my opinion, make possible the "Rogers" interpretation, according to which there is no cancellation during the initial 5 year period. But if I add a comma after "thereafter", I can find the "Rogers" interpretation this way: "... and thereafter, it shall continue in force for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
Note that in the news article, the opinion of the regulator is quoted that the ruling has to do with "the rules of punctuation", but there is no actual reference to the second comma in the ruling. I suggest that the omission of a comma after "thereafter" is more relevant.
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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09-26-2011, 12:21 PM
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#62
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Greg, which law school did you attend?
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Numbers is hard
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09-26-2011, 12:37 PM
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#63
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
Greg, which law school did you attend?
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The closest I ever came to arguing a legal issue was when a lawyer defending a pornography case wanted me to testify about the interpretation of an obscurely worded statute. It was an interesting issue, but the only interpretation I could find argued against his client's interest, so I didn't get to testify. (Having reached this conclusion, should I have contacted the public prosecutor?)
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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09-26-2011, 12:52 PM
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#64
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 141
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Enjoy!
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09-26-2011, 01:11 PM
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#65
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
It's an interesting example, but I don't understand it. Omitting that second comma does not, in my opinion, make possible the "Rogers" interpretation, according to which there is no cancellation during the initial 5 year period. But if I add a comma after "thereafter", I can find the "Rogers" interpretation this way: "... and thereafter, it shall continue in force for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
Note that in the news article, the opinion of the regulator is quoted that the ruling has to do with "the rules of punctuation", but there is no actual reference to the second comma in the ruling. I suggest that the omission of a comma after "thereafter" is more relevant.
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If you remove the portion between the commas, i.e. the parenthetical element, it reads thus:
“shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party.”
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."
The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
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09-26-2011, 01:22 PM
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#66
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
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I think this would definitely be the place to recruit subjects for an OCD study.
Ha
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"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
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09-26-2011, 01:39 PM
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#67
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo2
If you remove the portion between the commas, i.e. the parenthetical element, it reads thus:
“shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party.”
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Yes, and that gives the "Aliant" interpretation, according to which the contract can be terminated within the first 5 year period. But how do you get the "Rogers" interpretation, according to which the contract can only be terminated after the first 5 year period?
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Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
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09-26-2011, 01:44 PM
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#68
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 496
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Sumtimes I get so nucular, I have to go to the liberry to calm down and get new idears.
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Inside me is a skinny person crying to get out, but I can usually shut the b*tch up with cookies
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09-26-2011, 01:45 PM
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#69
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haha
I think this would definitely be the place to recruit subjects for an OCD study.
Ha
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OCD - good point. A few other traits come to mind as well when reading this thread.
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09-26-2011, 01:50 PM
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#70
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
Yes, and that gives the "Aliant" interpretation, according to which the contract can be terminated within the first 5 year period. But how do you get the "Rogers" interpretation, according to which the contract can only be terminated after the first 5 year period?
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Possibly by removing the first comma? I guess Rogers 'assumed' that "everyone will know what we mean".
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."
The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
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09-26-2011, 02:44 PM
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#71
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SF East Bay
Posts: 4,324
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The one that jumps out at me often (pronounced with the t audible ) is the use of insure instead of ensure. It is quite surprising how even well-regarded websites and publications get this one wrong.
I've also noticed how many people who make much more money than me have terrible spelling and grammar, so obviously this isn't an indicator of prospective financial success.
__________________
Contentedly ER, with 3 furry friends (now, sadly, 1).
Planning my escape to the wide open spaces in my campervan (with my remaining kitty, of course!)
On a mission to become the world's second most boring man.
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09-26-2011, 02:54 PM
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#72
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
The one that jumps out at me often (pronounced with the t audible )
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
is the use of insure instead of ensure. It is quite surprising how even well-regarded websites and publications get this one wrong.
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I assure you if you insure yourself you will ensure the sureness of your loved ones.
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09-26-2011, 04:12 PM
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#73
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,368
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__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."
The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
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09-26-2011, 04:13 PM
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#74
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: yonder
Posts: 2,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
I've also noticed how many people who make much more money than me have terrible spelling and grammar, so obviously this isn't an indicator of prospective financial success.
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Uh, Major Tom...
I think it should be: ...people who make much more money than I have terrible...
(But this is in the spirit of this thread only).
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09-26-2011, 04:13 PM
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#75
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo2
I'm reassured.
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Most assuredly.
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09-26-2011, 04:18 PM
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#76
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redduck
Uh, Major Tom...
I think it should be: ...people who make much more money than I have terrible...
(But this is in the spirit of this thread only).
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Good point! In the spirit of the thread, I notice a lot of things in both written and spoken words that are technically "wrong." In real life, most of us really don't care (okay, except maybe for "it's" instead of "its"--that one I might have to point out).
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
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09-26-2011, 05:11 PM
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#78
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,288
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Who would've thought this thread would go viral?
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09-26-2011, 05:30 PM
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#79
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,821
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I've always understood that either form of serial commas was considered acceptable, but I've always tried to stick with including the comma in the last item in the list. So...
'red, white, and blue.' over 'red, white and blue.'
It always seemed clearer to me. Recently, I read a great example of how the final comma can add clarity - ahhh, here's the example I was looking for:
COMMAS: The Biggest Little Quirks in the English Language - Hohonu
Quote:
I dedicate this book to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.
Here, omitting the final comma suggests that the last two items are a special pair (an appositive for parents) (Lynch, 2001).
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So it makes it sound like the parents are Ayn Rand and God. But with the final comma, it's clear that there is a list of three references.
Quote:
The serial comma problem becomes more evident in this example: We have several positions available: copywriter, ad executive, receptionist and typist. How many positions are available? As it is written, it could be either three or four, depending on whether or not the receptionist is also the typist. If there are four open positions, a comma between receptionist and typist makes this clear. Commas are for clarity.
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Possessives are my downfall, I don't think I'll ever get through my mental block on those (other than it's = it is). Too many convoluted rules w/o logic. I read once they were based on the old forms of words that we no longer use - and that is why it is so confusing.
-ERD50
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09-26-2011, 05:39 PM
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#80
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I've always understood that either form of serial commas was considered acceptable, but I've always tried to stick with including the comma in the last item in the list. So...
'red, white, and blue.' over 'red, white and blue.'
-ERD50
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Lynne Truss, author of Eats Shoots & Leaves, says "the so-called Oxford comma (also known as the serial comma) . . . is a lot more dangerous than its exclusive, ivory-tower moniker might suggest. There are people who embrace the Oxford comma and people who don't, and I'll just say this: never get between these people when drink has been taken."
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Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
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