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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 07:29 AM   #41
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
For those worrying about Safari.. In my experience I can only remember about two instances of flaky sites (and I do a LOT of surfing).. they're usually sites that are wedded to Microsoft's X-something or other for video or interactive content. F** 'em. One of them was NBC. I can live without NBC. That was over a year ago, and I've had zero surfing problems since then.
I have Firefox loaded for just such instances.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 07:43 AM   #42
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Re: Mac or PC?

I cut my teeth on VMS, grew up on Unix, and largely managed to avoid both Macs and PCs until about 10 years ago. I find both of them distasteful, but find PCs at least tolerable, while Macs are incredibly counter-intuitive to me. I just feel like I'm banging my head against the wall every time I try to use one -- they seem to intentionally not do what you expect or want them to do, even if they do have unix underpinnings these days.

But play with them both -- maybe even try out Linux -- and get whatever you feel most comfortable with. In the end, it's all just ones and zeroes.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 08:51 AM   #43
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Re: Mac or PC?

I still have my chip removal tools. Anyone still have their Mac cracker?

As for the debate, geez guys-- I just want to get my work done. Right now the PC world seems to require more fuss & maintenance than is rewarded by being the industry standard. Those of you who think a PC is a better/safer platform don't spend enough time in a houseful of teens accessing gaming & music websites. Microsoft's "permissions" system just seems designed to make life harder on the system administrator ("Daa-aad, could you install this for us please?") instead of making things safer for the user.

A friend has picked up a Mac laptop and is giving me his Mac Mini, complete with KVM switch for quick comparison between our PC and the Mini. It'll be interesting to see what's better worse differently different. Especially when I port our 15 years of Quicken data over to a Mac...
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 09:29 AM   #44
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
Sigh. Yes, my computer MIGHT get struck by lightning. But so what? It's only a computer.
But wouldnt it suck if someone loads a keystroke logger on your machine and captures your passwords to your financial institutions, your email, and everything else? You'd never know...no protection to tip you off. And I dont know about you, but while I keep good backups, it takes me a day or two to reload all my software and files onto a wrecked machine. Theres absolutely zero economy to doing that task on a mac vs a PC.

Quote:
I have spent ZERO extra time and money on the issue, while you have spent lots...
Au contraire. I've spent zero extra time and money as well. Virus protection is provided for free by most system manufacturers and ISP's. Its already on the machine. It updates itself. It only interrupts me when something bad happens, which for the last 2-3 years has been never.

Nords...you're about to learn the mac mantra that I developed when asked to install something, make something work properly, or fix something:

"That doesnt run on the mac" and "I dont know".

At least you're getting it for free

Seriously though, if anyone swallows the Mac OSX hook, get a core duo/core 2 duo intel based machine. Then at least your hardware will let you change your mind later.

One of the things that really bugs me is when I get stung by a marketing campaign that sells me a package of goods that isnt delivered. I always feel like an idiot. Buying a mac was one of those times.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 09:40 AM   #45
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
And I dont know about you, but while I keep good backups, it takes me a day or two to reload all my software and files onto a wrecked machine. Theres absolutely zero economy to doing that task on a mac vs a PC.
I use Norton Ghost and external USB drive for automatic backups. I had my hard drive go out last week and I used the the Ghost recovery CD and had my computer restored EXACTLY to its condition of the night before in 15 minutes on the new drive. I was impressed.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 09:48 AM   #46
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Re: Mac or PC?

I've had no end of problems with backup tools accurately restoring a bootable windows system drive, but Ghost always worked well. My persistent problem is with getting all the updated application bits and files since I last backed up...right now i'm using a mirrored raid pair and some nice tools from Apricorn that do an image backup and can synchronize directories with other machines.

External disk drives are really, really good things. The Apricorn ones are especially sweet due to the nice layered software they include.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 10:42 AM   #47
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Re: Mac or PC?

I generally avoid talking about religion, politics, or operating systems because you're not going to change any minds on any of these topics.

My first personal computer was an Apple ][. I wrote the modem software, a database system, word processor and a Pascal compiler for it all in FORTH. I bought a Mac SE when they came out and liked Apple. At the same time I had a DOS machine for work and when Windows 95 came along I went completely to the dark side.

I haven't used the new Macs so I won't try to make comparisons, but I am always surprised when Mac people talk about how difficult it is to do something on a Windows machine or how often they crash. I develop software part time and I stress the resources of a machine far more than most folks and I have zero problems with my computer crashing.

Installing software is no harder than clicking on an installation file. Connecting my external hard drive was a matter of plugging in the USB cable. Yesterday my wife wanted some video of one our dogs to send to someone. I shot the video, plugged my camera into my new Dell laptop for the first time ever and turned on the camera. Up pops a wizard and I download the video, edit it with a program I've never seen before and in 10 minutes had some clips to send off. I will concede I had to put a CD in to install my HP LaserJet, but I guess I will just have to pay that price for the other advantages I see.

I'm probably setting myself up for a big fall here, but I've had no problems with viruses or other security problems. I would run a firewall no matter what operating system I ran. I like knowing what is going out from my computer to the Internet. You might be surprised how many programs call home and I like knowing who they are connecting to and what they are sending. The Mac OS may be fundamentally more secure, I don't know, but I don't think you can discount completely the market share argument. Some of you may remember in the early days when Macs had a larger market share they also had the market share of viruses and everybody ran Disinfectant on their Macs. (I know it's a different OS, just saying the market share argument has some merit.)

Finally, there are specialized areas where there are few software choices for a Mac. One of my hobbies is astronomy. One of my astronomy friends has a Mac and he has problems finding astronomy software that runs on his Mac. He ordered a CCD camera but had to cancel when the promised software version for the Mac never developed. The plans for his observatory came on a CCD that required a program that did not run on a Mac. He can't use a lot of equipment or software because there is no version for the Mac.

If you like Macs then good for you, but I wouldn't be put off from getting a PC by the usual arguments I hear.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 02:08 PM   #48
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoe
Yes, Macs are more expensive, but they are virtually virus-proof and security updates can be downloaded and installed automatically for you. .... It also prints to PDF, so anybody can read your document if they have Adobe (free) Reader....
Plug it into a cable or DSL modem and it practically configures itself! You only have to answer 3 questions about your Internet service name, your netwok login and password, and BAM - Connected!
This is exactly what I wrote about in my previous post. Mac owners seem to believe that they've got something that Windows PCs don't. But this is simply not true. Windows PCs now come with anti-virus software making them virus-proof. They also come with automatic security updates that are downloaded and installed automatically for you. My Windows PC also prints to PDF if I select that printer. I connect my PC to networks all over the world and I don't have to answer any questions.

Telling us these things is like telling us that the Mac has a keyboard.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-24-2007, 03:47 PM   #49
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Re: Mac or PC?




My wife is in the design business. She runs a mac in the house. When I was working on records in LA, I did all my work stuff on Macs. Now I run a PC for myself, just for everyday home office stuff. I've got PCs at school. It does seem that entire industries choose to run Macs (generally art related).

Since I work on them both throughout an average day, my gut is just that the Mac is elegant. I think the iPod is good parallel. Yes, you can get the same features for less money, but, man, the iPod is just cooler, easier and more fun. Yes, all gut stuff. You can do it with either one, but, if you can afford it, take the Mac.

I'll continue to run a PC for myself, because I can't justify the extra cost. But would I rather be on a Mac...yup.

Elegance.

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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:30 AM   #50
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL!
Telling us these things is like telling us that the Mac has a keyboard.
...and its better than the ones pc's have! Cooler, easier and more fun!
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:37 AM   #51
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Re: Mac or PC?


I've been using Macs for 22 years. (My MacPlus still works.)

I can't see any reason at all to try the other stuff.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 02:28 PM   #52
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Re: Mac or PC?

My second (and last) Sony VAIO died, dammit. DW used it daily for a year or so after I used it for a year or so. Its been in the shop twice and not worth any more repairs. Over the last 7 years I've bought 5 laptops and I'm now using my backup PIII 2000 ThinkPad. Its a rock and cost me nearly $2000 back in 2000 using Windows 2000.

I've always spent well over a grand on laptops except last year at back-to-school time I picked up a Toshiba A105-s2101 for around $700 with a 4 year warrantee from Circuit City. I really liked it except the beautiful screen at 15" was a bit too wide within the arms of my puffy Laz-Boy recliner.

Needless to say DW now has commandered mine so I get to buy a new one so I have to do all the heavy researching of what to get. Being absolutely crazy over these types of decisions, I'm actually losing sleep reviewing all kinds of crap and dealing with new terms like:
Vista
Bloatware
64 bit
One Note
DVD/RW
Core 2 Duo
Fingerprint

Anyway tomorrow I just might pull the trigger on a Lenovo 3000n 0689A5U or a similarly equipped Toshiba Tecra. Both are under a grand. The only thing I'm sure about is that the screen will be 14"and comfy in the recliner. I just hope the damn thing will run cooler than most, as sometimes my lap overheats. All in all, a nice problem to have.

To be continued...



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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 03:56 PM   #53
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Re: Mac or PC?

Practically ANY of the dual processor machines, core duo or core 2 duo, are pretty darn adequate for most users, unless you're planning to do heavy video format conversions, frequent DVD burning or high frame rate games. Even the low end core duo's that are pretty cheap will kick butt on most 2-3 year old machines.

The dual cpu's really make a difference when running two or more 'hungry' apps. Its pretty nice to be able to run a backup or a big file copy AND surf the web without the machine grinding to a halt.

Except for some very specific applications that I cant imagine most people doing at home (yeah, yeah, and 640k of memory should be enough for anyone), 64 bit has nearly no value in the home desktop. The primary benefit is fast access to more than 4GB of RAM. The high end versions of vista really want 2GB to run well, but 4GB is a lot of headroom.

I honestly wouldnt touch Vista for at least 2 years. Big benny on buying a machine thats loaded with XP and comes with a free vista upgrade coupon, something thats been sitting in stock since last year. Wait until after Service Pack 1. Then wait for them to fix all the stuff they screwed up in the service pack.

Before the mac marauders jump in on that comment ...I tried to use OSX 10.0 and 10.1 on a g3/500 imac. Couple of beta products foisted off on the public as a production system if you ask me.

The core duo and core 2 duo are pretty cool runners compared to the pentium 3 and pentium 4 based laptops, and most of the AMD mobile processors for that matter. Core 2 duo is a little more efficient and faster, but you're going to pay for it. Not cost effective for a 14" home laptop IMO. Good buys on the "slower" core duos out there.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 03:57 PM   #54
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUM
My second (and last) Sony VAIO died, dammit. DW used it daily for a year or so after I used it for a year or so. Its been in the shop twice and not worth any more repairs. Over the last 7 years I've bought 5 laptops and I'm now using my backup PIII 2000 ThinkPad. Its a rock and cost me nearly $2000 back in 2000 using Windows 2000.

I've always spent well over a grand on laptops except last year at back-to-school time I picked up a Toshiba A105-s2101 for around $700 with a 4 year warrantee from Circuit City. I really liked it except the beautiful screen at 15" was a bit too wide within the arms of my puffy Laz-Boy recliner.

Needless to say DW now has commandered mine so I get to buy a new one so I have to do all the heavy researching of what to get. Being absolutely crazy over these types of decisions, I'm actually losing sleep reviewing all kinds of crap and dealing with new terms like:
Vista
Bloatware
64 bit
One Note
DVD/RW
Core 2 Duo
Fingerprint

Anyway tomorrow I just might pull the trigger on a Lenovo 3000n 0689A5U or a similarly equipped Toshiba Tecra. Both are under a grand. The only thing I'm sure about is that the screen will be 14"and comfy in the recliner. I just hope the damn thing will run cooler than most, as sometimes my lap overheats. All in all, a nice problem to have.

To be continued...



I bought an HP 2000 pavillion for 899 minus 150 worth of rebates last week at Cir City total 749.

I must say I am impressed with this machine. getting about 3 hours with the battery, sure there is a bit of bloatware on the machine and it has the Vista premium on it. Firefox was and still has some issues being able to be the default browser but I downloaded Opera and it works great.

I wanted a mac and decided the extra 700 dollars was well a dumb financial move.

By the way I still have an E Machines E slate notebook that is pushing 8 years old that still works great for word processing and funny but it still works on the dialup modem!! Screen is getting hard to see in the daylight and the battery is toast must use plugged in BUT its for emergencies or when a grandchild wants to type!!
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:06 PM   #55
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Re: Mac or PC?

Don't believe the propoganda on the TV aqbout the simplicity of the Maqc over the PC. Macs require peripherals, too, and the Mac's are about 2x as expensive. If you ever want to do something computer-relatged, that the Mac's systems programmers didn't anticipate, you'll find yourself (not literally) peeling back the user-friendly surface intertface, to gaze on ther fires of Mac Hell burning immediately under that surface ... just as bad as a PC.

I also seem to remember, about 10 years ago, that Microsoft now owns about 40% of Apple. :
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:39 PM   #56
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
when a grandchild wants to type!!
If you have a toddler around that wants to use your machine, try "toddler keys", a free tool that sits in your windows system tray...when they want to type you click on it and it locks out the keyboard, mouse and power switch, but if you import some sound files into it, it'll play a different sound for each key pressed and the mouse acts like an 'etch a sketch' on the screen. You have to type 'quit' to get it unlocked, then you're back where you were.

Essential after Gabe managed to delete half the icons on my desktop in 1.2 seconds

http://tk.ms11.net/
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:52 PM   #57
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
. . .Essential after Gabe managed to delete half the icons on my desktop in 1.2 seconds

Pretty clever little guy. It would take a trained professional several minutes to accomplish the same thing, yet saavy todlers seem to have an instinct for such tasks. My cat once accomplished a similar feat, but it took her about 5 seconds.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 08:54 PM   #58
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Re: Mac or PC?

I spent a frustrating afternoon with him hitting the nice glowing blue power button on the laptop every 5 minutes whenever he passed by. Finally had to disable the dang thing.
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #59
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Re: Mac or PC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
If you have a toddler around that wants to use your machine, try "toddler keys", a free tool that sits in your windows system tray...

http://tk.ms11.net/
Had something like that, maybe called Baby Smash, on my Apple IIe
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Re: Mac or PC?
Old 02-25-2007, 10:23 PM   #60
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Re: Mac or PC?

Ummm, sorry to disrupt the religion and tech talk, but has anyone recently considered the context of the original poster's question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by setab
I'm certain this has been covered, but please indulge me since I am computer challenged. I need a good, reliable computer and even better printer for word processing and casual net surfing. I do not need lots of bells and whistles. I write and frequently have to send in manuscripts. Kinkos, etc. is just not all that convenient or cost effective. An all-in-one printer would be ideal for me. Sugestions? Thanks.

setab
A few key phrases:

Quote:
'I am computer challenged.'
'for word processing and casual net surfing'

So, more to the point - IMO (and many others, and I have used both) Macs are much easier for 'computer challenged' people to set up and work with. I've helped a few people 'switch' to a Mac - and they agree.

OTOH, again IMO, *all* computers are harder to use and more complex than they should be. The OP may need some hand-holding. If he knows a bunch of competent Windows people that are willing to help, and no Mac users that can help - that could be an important factor.

CFB - If all this virus protection stuff was so easy, my neighbor's kids would not be coming over to my house to finish their homework because their computer crashed from a virus - it has happened several times. Another neighbor bought a new computer because theirs was running so slow. I suspect it was loaded with spyware. Sure, CFB might know how to prevent that and how to correct it, but would a 'computer challenged' person be able to do that? - not my neighbors. No Mac user I know has ever been affected by a virus at home. You can argue whether that is due to their smaller market share, or their design (I think it is both), but who cares? The record speaks well. Sure, that could change tomorrow, but I've been agreeing with that for many years, and so far so good. If/when it happens, there will be fixes. And if Windows has been so great with virus protection, why is Microsoft making such a splash about how improved Vista is? That does not add up, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Their service and support are usually in the top 2. That having been said Dell beats them out on some surveys and Dell's support sucks.
Now that is news to me. Apple service/support has been #1 in every report I've seen. OK, maybe there are 'some surveys' that show that - but I'd bet that *most* surveys show Apple to be superior in this regard (Consumer Reports among them, FWIW). And that is important to someone that says 'I am computer challenged'. I have called Apple service maybe 4 times in the 15 or so years I've owned and supported others Macs - each time the problem was handled very efficiently. I rarely get 'service' from any customer service dept - Apple has been an exception.

So, for casual use, a Mac Mini and a nice big cheap LCD monitor can get the job done nicely. Get an external drive for backups.

RE: 'All in one printers' - I prefer separates. The printers are made pretty cheap these days - they may last many years or just a few months (and the warranty may exclude the part that often goes bad - the print head). Most scanners double as fax machines (but few have multi-page feed).

-ERD50
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