Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-12-2016, 09:24 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
Oh, we need dreamers. Without dreaming of the new things, how do we make progress?

But when we try to turn dreams into reality, we need to get more facts, more proofs, before we can write a check.
__________________

__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-12-2016, 09:29 PM   #42
Full time employment: Posting here.
dixonge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ajijic
Posts: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Oh, we need dreamers. Without dreaming of the new things, how do we make progress?

But when we try to turn dreams into reality, we need to get more facts, more proofs, before we can write a check.

Who is 'we'? Is there a government Mars colonization program that I missed?
__________________

__________________
dixonge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:03 PM   #43
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Cocoa Beach
Posts: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixonge View Post
Yeah, you're probably right. Pie in the sky, silly dreamers.
Ha!
Silly really but this just made me LOL, good thing I wasn't drinking milk at the time!


I absolutely believe that humans will be living on another planet or moon at some point in the future, when? I dunno, but I am very happy that someone is at least trying to make the first steps towards making it a reality. I find it especially comforting when they place their own money and time on the table in order to further the effort, and I don't care if their only justification for doing it is completely selfish or self-satisfying. I say: "Go Team Human!"
__________________
Lucantes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:05 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
By we, I mean the taxpayers.

If private parties want to do this with their own money, they can go ahead anytime. Why would they need permission?

But the promoters are trying to get gummint's money, which is really "our" money.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:07 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
RobbieB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Central CA
Posts: 2,498
I'll invest in Mars right after I buy the Maserati and the new house with the boat dock on the river.

Yup, you can count on my support -
__________________
Retired at 59 in 2014. Should have done it sooner but I worried too much.
RobbieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:20 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,319
I'd be willing to chip in a little bit for a manned flight to Mars...but only if I get to pick a few people to go that don't deserve to be on this planet.
__________________
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:21 PM   #47
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 511
Unless you seriously believe in the possibility of terraforming, how is a Mars colony any better "species survival insurance" than a similar colony on the Moon. The logistics of lunar colonization, while daunting, are vastly simpler than those of outfitting/sustaining a Mars colony.

But nobody talks about a Moon colony anymore. Is it just that it's 50 year old technology now and lacks the Elon Coolness Factor?
__________________
stepford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 10:31 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
Hey, I was the first to use the phrase "pie in the sky" in this thread, before Californiaman. See post #20.

And by the way, I researched the origin of this phrase, and learned from the Web that
This expression was first recorded in 1911 in a rallying song of a union, the International Workers of the World (or "Wobblies"): "Work and pray, live on hay, you'll get pie in the sky when you die."
Very interesting! I searched youtube for this song, but have not found it.

PS. I found it. It's "The Preacher and the Slave".

PPS. Further research into the origin of this song revealed even more interesting episodes in American history. The Web is great! I have used this phrase before without understanding the story behind it. Now, I know.


__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 12:33 AM   #49
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Cocoa Beach
Posts: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepford View Post
Unless you seriously believe in the possibility of terraforming, how is a Mars colony any better "species survival insurance" than a similar colony on the Moon. The logistics of lunar colonization, while daunting, are vastly simpler than those of outfitting/sustaining a Mars colony.
But nobody talks about a Moon colony anymore. Is it just that it's 50 year old technology now and lacks the Elon Coolness Factor?
I want a Moon colony also! having one on Mars wouldn't preclude one on the Moon, I want us to be everywhere!
As an aside, I also welcome the Alien/Robot/Spaghetti Monster Overlords!
__________________
Lucantes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 05:29 AM   #50
Full time employment: Posting here.
dixonge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ajijic
Posts: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
By we, I mean the taxpayers.

If private parties want to do this with their own money, they can go ahead anytime. Why would they need permission?

But the promoters are trying to get gummint's money, which is really "our" money.
Personally, I'd be fine with funding NASA with a small percentage of the current military budget. But regardless the source, I think Mars would be a lot more valuable than several other expenditure areas. I think we can and should fix infrastructure as well as go to Mars. I have my doubts that we can overcome the military-industrial complex lobbying dollars, however. Don't forget that not all of 'us' agree on how 'our' money is spent in D.C.

Which would leave Space-X. But I'm not sure how they would commercialize this, other than shuttling bored billionaires around.
__________________
dixonge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 09:40 AM   #51
Full time employment: Posting here.
CaliforniaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Hey, I was the first to use the phrase "pie in the sky" in this thread, before Californiaman. See post #20.
...
Well I always say, if you are going to steal, steal from the best

Sorry, I didn't read all the previous posts clearly enough. Thanks for looking into the etymology of the phrase, very interesting.
__________________
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.
CaliforniaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:07 AM   #52
Full time employment: Posting here.
MuirWannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by dixonge View Post
Personally, I'd be fine with funding NASA with a small percentage of the current military budget. But regardless the source, I think Mars would be a lot more valuable than several other expenditure areas. I think we can and should fix infrastructure as well as go to Mars. I have my doubts that we can overcome the military-industrial complex lobbying dollars, however. Don't forget that not all of 'us' agree on how 'our' money is spent in D.C.

Which would leave Space-X. But I'm not sure how they would commercialize this, other than shuttling bored billionaires around.
Count me in with this line of thinking. Don't really understand why such strong feelings against this type of exploration and 'dreaming'.

Muir
__________________
“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.” John Muir
MuirWannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:09 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
Having worked in aerospace most of my career, I have seen so many ill-conceived boondoggle projects that I became disillusioned with the whole area. I have read an interview with Musk, and I have to agree with his observations about how inefficient large aerospace companies are. And he was able to capitalize on that to do nice things with Space-X.

But colonizing Mars goes beyond making things less expensive using new methods, the like Musk has done. A lot has to be worked out, demonstrated, and tested on earth first before we load it up on top of a rocket to take to Mars. You've got to crawl, then walk, before you can run.

I firmly believe that private enterprises particularly smaller ones are always more efficient than larger ones. They promote the smarter, harder workers. The aerospace corporations I have worked for, the larger they are, the more deadweights they carry on the payroll. And any private enterprise must be profitable, or they cease to exist. Yet, this Mars colonization project is so large that I cannot see it carried out without public money. Then, we are back to overly optimistic schedules, promises of progress that are not met, huge cost overruns, etc...

That's why I think public money should be used on projects that have more immediate benefits here on earth, and that have more visible progress for public oversight. Too much money has flowed into black-hole projects that even when results are delivered, they could have been achieved at one-tenth the cost.

PS. I spent most of my life working on airborne things. Now, I do not care to follow the new developments much, having lost all interests.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:12 AM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuirWannabe View Post
Count me in with this line of thinking. Don't really understand why such strong feelings against this type of exploration and 'dreaming'.

Muir
Because the economy is a mess. Spending trillions and going even deeper into debt to go to Mars "just because" makes no sense when there are real issues that need fixing first. Let the dreamers pay for it out of their pocket, and use tax dollars here where they are needed.
__________________
Music Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:16 AM   #55
Full time employment: Posting here.
MuirWannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Because the economy is a mess. Spending trillions and going even deeper into debt to go to Mars "just because" makes no sense when there are real issues that need fixing first. Let the dreamers pay for it out of their pocket, and use tax dollars here where they are needed.
I'm unaware anyone is spending trillions to go to Mars. Musk is driving costs out of spaceflight and doing it through the private sector. Of course, he's not quite to Mars yet so we will see. But I hope his efforts lead the way. I don't see tax dollars being spent here solving many problems anyway.
__________________
“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.” John Muir
MuirWannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:23 AM   #56
Full time employment: Posting here.
MuirWannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Having worked in aerospace most of my career, I have seen so many ill-conceived boondoggle projects that I became disillusioned with the whole area. I have read an interview with Musk, and I have to agree with his observations about how inefficient large aerospace companies are. And he was able to capitalize on that to do nice things with Space-X.

But colonizing Mars goes beyond making things less expensive using new methods, the like Musk has done. A lot has to be worked out, demonstrated, and tested on earth first before we load it up on top of a rocket to take to Mars. You've got to crawl, then walk, before you can run.

I firmly believe that private enterprises particularly smaller ones are always more efficient than larger ones. They promote the smarter, harder workers. The aerospace corporations I have worked for, the larger they are, the more deadweights they carry on the payroll. And any private enterprise must be profitable, or they cease to exist. Yet, this Mars colonization project is so large that I cannot see it carried out without public money. Then, we are back to overly optimistic schedules, promises of progress that are not met, huge cost overruns, etc...

That's why I think public money should be used on projects that have more immediate benefits here on earth, and that have more visible progress for public oversight. Too much money has flowed into black-hole projects that even when results are delivered, they could have been achieved at one-tenth the cost.

PS. I spent most of my life working on airborne things. Now, I do not care to follow the new developments much, having lost all interests.

I appreciate your perspective. It is certainly a reasoned argument based upon your experience why you are against such 'dreaming'. Guess I just feel the public money waste you reference is far from limited to space programs. Therefore, why single this out?

Muir
__________________
“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.” John Muir
MuirWannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 10:39 AM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
Well, I have been against most big public programs.

I believe in capitalism though, and that people will try to do their best, work the longest hours humanly possible to achieve certain goals if they are allowed to share in the fruits of their labor. The problem with huge public projects is that it is difficult to structure them to allow the above to happen.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 12:43 PM   #58
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Because the economy is a mess. Spending trillions and going even deeper into debt to go to Mars "just because" makes no sense when there are real issues that need fixing first. Let the dreamers pay for it out of their pocket, and use tax dollars here where they are needed.
Actually, something like a Mars program could pull us out of the next recession. At least it accomplishes something rather than dumping money out of helicopters. Many jobs would be created by an ambitious effort to establish a colony on Mars.
__________________
Fermion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 02:36 PM   #59
Full time employment: Posting here.
CaliforniaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 847
I think there might have been a misunderstanding about my "Pie in the sky. Who is going to pay for all of this?" post.

I did not mean that I personally thought we should not go to mars because we needed to spend the money on other things, like infrastructure, etc., my point was that this is what the electorate, those that have to pay the taxes, will come to think, having to spend so much money to send a few people to mars, increasing the debt or forcing limitations on what they want to spend on projects that they deem more important. It will not happen.

For me personally, I love the idea of space travel, and certainly thought, as did many people after the moon landing, that we would have a thriving colony on the moon well before the year 2000.

But I don't see how anyone will ever convince taxpayers that they need to fund such an expensive project, when other things that they want, whatever they happen to be, are being underfunded in their opinion.

What bothers me about all these people talking up sending people to mars, is that there is never any mention of a plan to fund it. We need to go because it is in our DNA will not cut it.

As I mentioned, maybe somehow, someone will fund sending a person to mars, but I cannot see how there will be any enthusiasm for keeping up the spending necessary to do more than that.

Somebody says we need to or will go to mars? Show me the money. Show me the money.
__________________
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.
CaliforniaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 02:47 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fermion View Post
... Many jobs would be created by an ambitious effort to establish a colony on Mars.
But the jobs will mostly benefit high-tech workers, with nothing going to the lower labor force. On the other hand, something like an infrastructure on earth with immediate and visible impact to the masses will be an easier sell.
__________________

__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to Get to Mars omni550 Other topics 10 09-17-2012 03:47 AM
Mars landing how cool is this! newguy88 Other topics 16 05-29-2008 06:56 PM
Would you delay ER to work on Mars? Warthog Other topics 3 02-19-2007 12:28 PM
Surface water on Mars? mickeyd Other topics 6 12-06-2006 06:20 PM
Mars needs women!, I mean... brewer12345 Other topics 5 10-15-2005 09:47 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:36 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.