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Old 12-19-2015, 09:31 AM   #41
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Can you say Karma is a bitch?
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Hopefully he will make a fellow prison mate a fine little bitch.

Going bankrupt and contracting HIV. Now that's Karma.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:35 AM   #42
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Perhaps they should impose limits on drug profitability like they do on health insurers (minimum loss ratio requirement).
Or they could eliminate the requirement for years of expensive drug trials and also eliminate liability for side effects from the drugs.

I am sure if a drug maker did not have to spend 4B to 10B to bring a single drug to market they would be willing to sell much cheaper.
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:09 AM   #43
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The iPhone would never be invented if it could not be sold for a profit.
Comparing an iphone vs life saving drug?
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Old 12-19-2015, 10:48 AM   #44
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Comparing an iphone vs life saving drug?
Perhaps we need a lot more government money funneled into drug discovery if we want to claim possession of these inventions.

We are essentially saying the private market has failed if we put significant caps on drug prices.

I guess we could have taxpayers fund phase I to phase III trials and also be responsible for future lawsuits if a drug passes trials but is later found to have problems. The drug makers would just be a factory and the government could set the price as low as they wanted.

Investors would stick to funding I-phones and restaurants and electric cars.
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Old 12-19-2015, 11:57 AM   #45
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Or they could eliminate the requirement for years of expensive drug trials and also eliminate liability for side effects from the drugs.

I am sure if a drug maker did not have to spend 4B to 10B to bring a single drug to market they would be willing to sell much cheaper.
Well, there is a delicate balance between being prudent and being careless. I don't know enough about the process (even though a friend works in pharma in drug development and I see what she goes through) to have an opinion whether the current process is too conservative or not, but given the way the government frequently goes overboard, it would nto be surprising if they are being too prudent.

Note that I would expect the drug makers to recover their costs and make a profit, just not an excessive profit. For some drugs that may still mean that they are still very expensive because of high development costs.
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:23 PM   #46
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Remember that the drug he sold for $750/pill is 62 years old and is no longer under patent. In India, it costs 10 cents a pill. There aren't a lot of people in the U.S. who will need the drug: those with toxoplasmosis, usually AIDS, pregnant women, and congenitally infected newborns, who can be treated even in the womb by treating the mother, which is most desirable for improved outcome.

This isn't about research dollars for new meds, it's about price gouging AIDS patients and pregnant women to treat a life and brain threatening infection.

Wrong is wrong. May the man rot in hell, or at least in prison.


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Old 12-19-2015, 12:52 PM   #47
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Remember that the drug he sold for $750/pill is 62 years old and is no longer under patent. In India, it costs 10 cents a pill. There aren't a lot of people in the U.S. who will need the drug: those with toxoplasmosis, usually AIDS, pregnant women, and congenitally infected newborns, who can be treated even in the womb by treating the mother, which is most desirable for improved outcome.

This isn't about research dollars for new meds, it's about price gouging AIDS patients and pregnant women to treat a life and brain threatening infection.

Wrong is wrong. May the man rot in hell, or at least in prison.

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He said it was about shareholder value. What is price gouging? Certain behavior of corporations s prescribed by law. Shareholder value is in there. It prevents absconding with investor's money. Price gouging? Just why we have the system we have and why we must maintain it? I don't know what it says about that. (It likely says nothing)

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Note that I would expect the drug makers to recover their costs and make a profit, just not an excessive profit.
What is an excessive profit? Adam Smith mentioned them, was against them and the whole concept. I don't recall what his fix for it was though. The law says shareholder value is paramount for corporate behavior. It's against the law or at least you can be taken to court for -not- making enough money under certain circumstances. Not squeezing as much money out of consumers, or medicare, or insurance companies as you possibly can is actually one of those reasons. But, of course, an ongoing and pervasive criminal mentality will always work these things for themselves, which by definition means to the detriment of others, under full cover of the law.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:12 PM   #48
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If anyone expects others to act ethically, they are going to be disappointed. For one, ethics means different things to different people.

As far as this high $ drug pricing goes, I think it should point out that the laws/regs need to be changed. Maybe I'm missing something, but it makes no sense that he was allowed to obtain a monopoly on an old generic drug. Take that away, and he would not have been able to do this.

I want the govt to foster innovation, but that has to be tempered with not creating monopolies. A patent is essentially a specific/narrow monopoly for a limited time. That makes sense on some levels,to allow the creator to recoup their R&D, but our patent laws have lots of problems.

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Old 12-19-2015, 02:03 PM   #49
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If anyone expects others to act ethically, they are going to be disappointed. For one, ethics means different things to different people
This is the inherent failure of communism AND capitalism. Proponents of both seem to insist that if people do whatever they want with no interference that which is best for everyone will be the result. Obviously a laughable basis immediately disemboweled by any real life experience .


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I want the govt to foster innovation, but that has to be tempered with not creating monopolies. A patent is essentially a specific/narrow monopoly for a limited time. That makes sense on some levels,to allow the creator to recoup their R&D, but our patent laws have lots of problems.
The government is supposed to look out of The People's interests. The interests of a business after that are the businessman's problem. But that's not how it seems to be going.
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Old 12-19-2015, 02:42 PM   #50
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...

The government is supposed to look out of The People's interests. The interests of a business after that are the businessman's problem. But that's not how it seems to be going.
And it's a tough balancing act. On one hand, you can say patent protection benefits the business. OTOH, the people benefit from the innovation that comes from a business having a little more assurance that they can profit from the innovation.

So it probably helps us all to have some protections for the business. But how much is a tough thing to settle.

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Old 12-19-2015, 03:33 PM   #51
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Perhaps we need a lot more government money funneled into drug discovery if we want to claim possession of these inventions.

We are essentially saying the private market has failed if we put significant caps on drug prices.

I guess we could have taxpayers fund phase I to phase III trials and also be responsible for future lawsuits if a drug passes trials but is later found to have problems. The drug makers would just be a factory and the government could set the price as low as they wanted.

Investors would stick to funding I-phones and restaurants and electric cars.
First of all, I don't know about this $4-10 billion to bring a drug to market.

But actually the big pharma companies spend more on advertising and marketing their drugs than they do on R&D.

Secondly, govt. funds a lot of NIH research and the pharma companies use a lot of that research for free. As someone noted earlier in the thread, in many cases, they just change molecules of a formulation a little and extend their patent protections.

Pharma is one of the most lucrative industries there are.
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Old 12-19-2015, 03:51 PM   #52
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.....What is an excessive profit? Adam Smith mentioned them, was against them and the whole concept. I don't recall what his fix for it was though. The law says shareholder value is paramount for corporate behavior. It's against the law or at least you can be taken to court for -not- making enough money under certain circumstances. Not squeezing as much money out of consumers, or medicare, or insurance companies as you possibly can is actually one of those reasons. But, of course, an ongoing and pervasive criminal mentality will always work these things for themselves, which by definition means to the detriment of others, under full cover of the law.
As a society we have limitations on prices and profits in numerous regulated industries like health insurance, electricity, cable, life insurance and others so these is ample precedent for defining what an excessive profit is.

I challenge you to provide a citation of a statute that says shareholder value is paramount as you claim. Ditto for a successful lawsuit for not making enough money.

Taking advantage of customers as Turing did is not a good way to maximize long-term shareholder value.... a competing drug compounding firm swooped in and made a substitute that cost $1 so Shkreli's decision to jack up the price and gouge customers ended up destroying shareholder value rather than creating it.
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Old 12-19-2015, 03:56 PM   #53
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Secondly, govt. funds a lot of NIH research and the pharma companies use a lot of that research for free. As someone noted earlier in the thread, in many cases, they just change molecules of a formulation a little and extend their patent protections.

Pharma is one of the most lucrative industries there are.
This is tossed around A LOT. Perhaps if they did not have the springboard of the initial govt. funded research (not everything is govt. funded btw) then drug costs would be $15B to $20B instead of $4B to $10B.

I am not talking about the case of buying a 62 year old drug, I am talking about a new drug, like the cure for Hep C, which cost Gilead $11B and it wasn't even in phase 2 trial yet.

I can give you a near endless list of smallish pharma who are on the pink sheets with just a few million dollars left after they have spent billions of investor money on drugs that failed. The drugs that succeed have to pay for these failures as well as the costs to get the successful drug through the trials or it makes no sense to invest in pharma (unless you do it as a charity).
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:07 PM   #54
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....Pharma is one of the most lucrative industries there are.
It may seem that way but their returns are higher than average they are not the most lucrative. I get 31 industries whose returns exceeded pharma.

Return on Equity
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:26 PM   #55
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[QUOTE]
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As a society we have limitations on prices and profits in numerous regulated industries like health insurance, electricity, cable, life insurance and others so these is ample precedent for defining what an excessive profit is.
I know and concur.

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I challenge you to provide a citation of a statute that says shareholder value is paramount as you claim.
I challenge you to etc etc. This is pretty common knowledge and not an extraordinary claim. Provide statutes? Funny. Pettyfogging is a game I blithely flip-off. Sorry.

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Ditto for a successful lawsuit for not making enough money.
Again. I am not a law library. As that would make a difference.
I do not engage is vapid table pounding.

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Taking advantage of customers as Turing did is not a good way to maximize long-term shareholder value....
I agree but....Doesn't have to be. As long as it meets their immediate goals it's good enough. For them. They're making the decisions. And any businessman is allowed to be wrong.

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a competing drug compounding firm swooped in and made a substitute that cost $1 so Shkreli's decision to jack up the price and gouge customers ended up destroying shareholder value rather than creating it.
He didn't give shat about anybody's money but his own IN THE MOMENT. Businesses hide behind that shareholder value thing all the time. He is under no more obligation to get it right than anybody else.

So want you'e saying is all businesses everywhere all the time always make the right decisions for all the right reasons? Yes. Incorrect.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:17 PM   #56
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.....The law says shareholder value is paramount for corporate behavior. It's against the law or at least you can be taken to court for -not- making enough money under certain circumstances. Not squeezing as much money out of consumers, or medicare, or insurance companies as you possibly can is actually one of those reasons. ....
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....I challenge you to provide a citation of a statute that says shareholder value is paramount as you claim. Ditto for a successful lawsuit for not making enough money. ....
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Originally Posted by razztazz View Post
....This is pretty common knowledge and not an extraordinary claim. Provide statutes? Funny. Pettyfogging is a game I blithely flip-off. Sorry.

Again. I am not a law library. As that would make a difference.
I do not engage is vapid table pounding. ....
Ok, let me restate. There is no law requiring corporate executives to maximize shareholder value.... it is a generally accepted principle that management's job is to maximize shareholder value but there is no law requiring it as you claim. If you think there is, then put up or.....

Also see:

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Maximizing shareholder value

This management principle, also known under value based management, states that management should first and foremost consider the interests of shareholders in its business actions. (Although the legal premise of a publicly traded company is that the executives are obligated to maximize the company's profit, this does not imply that executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value.)
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:29 PM   #57
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Santa must have gotten my letter early this year, because seeing this guy behind bars was at the top of my Christmas list.

He's not in jail yet. Hopefully, the charges stick and he is put away for a long time.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:46 PM   #58
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(Although the legal premise of a publicly traded company is that the executives are obligated to maximize the company's profit, this does not imply that executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value.)
I am talking principle and you're pounding words and apparently something else. I covered all that in my statements. The end.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:17 PM   #59
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I agreed in principle, I just objected to your assertion that it was a legal requirement... that's all. Done.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:37 PM   #60
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I agreed in principle, I just objected to your assertion that it was a legal requirement... that's all. Done.
For critical (life saving, e.g) drugs, should there be a regulation on how much mark up, or increase a company can do? When I first heard about the price hike story, it struck me as an illegal thing to do.
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