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Old 03-17-2011, 06:53 PM   #161
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The only reason they would be going off at O'Hare is that passengers arriving from Japan haven't changed their clothes or had a shower.
Heard the report again, radiation detected on people, luggage and the airplane.
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:01 PM   #162
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The only reason they would be going off at O'Hare is that passengers arriving from Japan haven't changed their clothes or had a shower.
That's right.

Toyko Passengers Set Off Radiation Detectors at O

BTW, I know a guy whose body odor is so bad that it interferes with local radio transmissions.
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:19 PM   #163
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Heard the report again, radiation detected on people, luggage and the airplane.
Oh, dear. I really, really hate to think of how those highly trained and compassionate TSA workers will handle this.

Edit: According to this, contamination was on cargo and luggage, not on passengers, and the level was very low. Luggage and cargo was all cleared and returned to passengers, and the planes were cleared to go.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:56 PM   #164
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Seems like the same exercise as pi$$ing on a volcano.
Pretty desperate measure.
Saw video of the drop, not very accurate results.

Edit add: The chopper (chinok) was moving fast. Presumably working on the time, distance of minimizing exposure to radiation.
I am surprised with all of the drones we manage to have for bombing people that we cannot send a robot controlled chopper that can fly in, hover and deliver the water right on target.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:35 PM   #165
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I think everyone around the world is simply paranoid. Radiation from the disaster could not have been on someone from that plane to Chicago, unless he or she were there at the nuke site, escaped the precaution zone without getting caught, made it 250 km thru the mud and muck to the airport (remember cars aren't getting thru), didn't take a shower before getting on the plane and wore his muddy mucky clothes for the 12 hour flight. Yeah, right. More likely he had a barium enema right before the flight.

I like Gumby's explanation, and I'm sticking with it. Besides, all the other scientific explanations seem to coincide with his. The explanations in the media don't seem very scientific. Remember, gloom and doom sells...happy, gonna be alright type of talk doesn't. (oh, and besides that, I have to live thru it, so I'd rather be concerned but not so scared that I would have to Depend on something to catch the mess).

R
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:49 AM   #166
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Way to go, Rambler. Thanks for checking in. Could you say something about the calm/panic levels among the Japanese down there in Tokyo?

Ha
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:01 AM   #167
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Looks like the O'hare radiation was from medical equipment that was stored in the cargo-hold. And at levels that is consistent with normal daily operations.

Radiation From Japan Detected At O’Hare Airport « CBS Chicago
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:14 AM   #168
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This morning's NYT delves into the problems getting trustworthy information from Japanese officials, either from government or TEPCO. It seems that so far TEPCO has been the ultimate source of everything, and some American officials do not think this is working very well. (Which I do not doubt at all, as CYA seems to be the universal motto everywhere.)

"Experts met in Tokyo to compare notes. The United States, with Japanese permission, began to put the intelligence-collection aircraft over the site, in hopes of gaining a view for Washington as well as its allies in Tokyo that did not rely on the announcements of officials from Tokyo Electric, which operates Fukushima Daiichi."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/wo...eEazQB+MDGHfDg

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Old 03-18-2011, 08:58 AM   #169
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Way to go, Rambler. Thanks for checking in. Could you say something about the calm/panic levels among the Japanese down there in Tokyo?

Ha
For starters, the officials aren't very forthcoming. No one believes them even in the best of times, why should they now? Kan was hanging on to his premiership by a thread before the disaster, but the country needs a leader now, even a marginal leader. (I think Edano is doing a better job than Kan...but we need a real thorough cleaning in Japanese politics in my opinion, and that is another topic for another day). This is the main reason for the panic...the people don't know "what" to believe about the nuclear crisis.

In terms of panic, I would almost say that it seems to be orderly and polite. Panic yes, but orderly panic. The lines to buy things are long, but everyone is cordial and polite. Sure people are buying more than usual...3 or 4 of an item instead of 2. But you won't see someone load their cart at the supermarket with every last loaf of bread and the go try to hawk it on the corner for 3-5x the price. The people are afraid that the govt won't get it's act together and solve the crisis. They fear more earthquakes (we've had over 600, maybe as many as 800 of them, 3 over magnitude 7, nearly 50 over magnitude 6, and over 300 over magnitude 5). We shake a few times an hour. Anyway, I wonder how someone who lived thru both this and something like Katrina or 9/11 would compare two societies and their reactions. I was here in Japan, so what I was seeing from here in Japan was colored with the lens of the media.

Many in the expat community that have simply fled. For the moms with 5 kids and a baby, the SAHM is better off in the states, as it is difficult for them to understand what is going on and hard for them to shop when they understand nothing and there us so little to buy. But it saddens me that the expat who has been sent here as a highly paid leader turns tail. It is times like this when leaders are most needed. Perhaps they weren't good leaders after all.

It's been a very long week. I'm tired. I told DW today that I just wanted to go somewhere for the weekend that was warm, high, away from the panic, and not shaking like jelly.

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Old 03-18-2011, 09:12 AM   #170
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Looks like the O'hare radiation was from medical equipment that was stored in the cargo-hold. And at levels that is consistent with normal daily operations.

Radiation From Japan Detected At O’Hare Airport « CBS Chicago
This article states people absorbed radiation.

Here's the part I read:
"Most passengers and airline crew members coming to O’Hare from Japan on Thursday said that it appeared the amount of radiation the radiation they’d absorbed was not dangerous."
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:20 AM   #171
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It's been a very long week. I'm tired. I told DW today that I just wanted to go somewhere for the weekend that was warm, high, away from the panic, and not shaking like jelly.

R
Thanks Rambler for your observations. About the shaking getting on your nerves- I can sure understand that. I lived in LA during the San Fernando Valley quake of 1971, maybe 20 miles SW of the epicenter. It was a pretty good shake that brought down some freeway overpasses, but of course nothing like what happened during the Miyagi Prefecture quake that you have just gone through. But nevertheless the aftershocks went on and on, and I believe from talking with people that it was more the ongoing nerve-wracking shaking that sent people packing their goods into U-Hauls and heading into other states than the one-off quake itself.

And aftershocks that of 7! - they can do plenty damage too.

Ha
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:31 PM   #172
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The best summary I've found of the sequence of events to date is at

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS...s_1803112.html

I apologize in advance if the URL wrapped. I'm on my iPhone.

It's been over 15 years but I used to work in the nuclear business doing fire safety analyses (Appendix R for you other nukes out there) including BWR/4 reactors in Mark I containments. As soon as the news hit that all power was wiped out I basically thought to myself "holy carp!!" My hat is off to the brave operators and responders at the plant. I can't imagine what they are going through.
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:49 PM   #173
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This article states people absorbed radiation.

Here's the part I read:
"Most passengers and airline crew members coming to O’Hare from Japan on Thursday said that it appeared the amount of radiation the radiation they’d absorbed was not dangerous."
The article also said this:

"Obama’s homeland security chief said federal officials are monitoring incoming flights from Japan for even trace amounts of radiation and that none was detected on passengers or luggage."
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:35 PM   #174
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The article also said this:

"Obama’s homeland security chief said federal officials are monitoring incoming flights from Japan for even trace amounts of radiation and that none was detected on passengers or luggage."
Ronstar,
I'm not sure if you noticed this article got updated last night at 10pm. They also included WBBM-780 radiocast at the top of the article.

"As WBBM Newsradio 780′s Mike Krauser reports, travelers coming in from Japan triggered radiation detectors at O’Hare as they passed through customs. Only very small amounts of radiation were detected."

You would think CBS TV and radio would get their stories straight in the same article!
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Old 03-19-2011, 06:06 AM   #175
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Ronstar,
I'm not sure if you noticed this article got updated last night at 10pm. They also included WBBM-780 radiocast at the top of the article.

"As WBBM Newsradio 780′s Mike Krauser reports, travelers coming in from Japan triggered radiation detectors at O’Hare as they passed through customs. Only very small amounts of radiation were detected."

You would think CBS TV and radio would get their stories straight in the same article!
Thanks! - I did not know they updated the article. I don't listen to WBBM radio - I just watch Kate Sullivan on local CBS tv.
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Old 03-19-2011, 10:11 AM   #176
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The tsunami was 23 meters (75 feet) high. It's difficult to imagine how any country could prepare for that, except to live only on top of the hills. Amazingly, there was a 38 meter tsunami in 1896.

Japan tsunami was less than 23 meters high

I also found a report of a 23 meter tsunami in Peru in 2010, but the fatalities were few.

If such an earthquake and tsunami were to occur on the West Coast, the consequences would be unbelievable.
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:53 PM   #177
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I've decided that the best way to describe a tsunami is as something between a wave and a tide, but mostly like a very fast tide. We often have waves of 20 feet around here, but they do no damage. When the tsunami hit California, it was reported to be 12 inches high.

But here are some videos from Crescent City (near us) to give you a feeling for what this "tidal wave" is like. It shows how on an open beach it's hardly noticeable, but in a river or harbor, the surge can have a big effect.

In the first video, the change in water level is no different from the change from low tide to high (those rocks are visible at low tide), but it changes in minutes instead of 6 hours.







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Old 03-20-2011, 12:33 AM   #178
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Catching up on old posts again:
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-- Nords pointed out the problems with getting reliable readings when the sensors start to go screwy. It would seem useful to have sets of sensors (temp, pressure, various radiation measures, H2 level meters, etc) sealed inside the RPV in their own independent protective vessels, safe from blast overpressure, irradiation, etc. When needed, blow the explosive bolts on the hatch and and expose a fresh set of sensors to the environment.
Nobody (except Naval Reactors, and lately not even them) wants to pay for redundancy insurance. Until it's too late.

I wonder how much the utility company paid out in dividends instead of on plant maintenance. I wonder if I own any of that stock through our index ETFs.

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An update:
News reports are coming in that 3 helicopters have dropped 7 tons of water on the Unit 3 and 4 spent fuel pools. Assuming a pool is 40x40x40 ft and we want to fill it halfway up, I calculate that we would need roughly 400 helicopter drops (assuming a bulls-eye each time).
Oh, great. I can see that radcon math question popping up on the next NR engineer's exam in a few months...
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:20 AM   #179
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I've been checking the EPA radnet website to monitor local radiation levels since the first "wave" of radiation has hit California. So far everything seems OK.

RadNet Air Monitoring Data from the U.S. West Coast | Japanese Nuclear Emergency: Radiation Monitoring | US EPA
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:59 AM   #180
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Thanks for this link.

Ha
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