Meet Mr. Money Mustache

I believe that while it may be possible to change water into wine, it is not a frequent occurrence.

Ha
 
bo_knows said:
Can we nip this right in the bud, because it majorly derailed the thread over at Bogleheads. The definition of "retired" is certainly different for everyone. Some people seem to think that you can't possibly earn a dime in income and consider yourself retired. Others say that they work half a day a week at the local coffee shop and consider themselves retired. Others manage a rental property so that they can have enough cashflow to be "retired" from corporate work.

I think that we'd all be better off talking about the merits of LBYM and investing, and MMM does that pretty well. Whether or not you think he's doing it purely for self-promoting reasons or not, the message is still the same as many people in these forums.
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Heck, I have not problem with people making money on the side when they are retired.... I had a BIL who did it for many years... ran a small yard light installation company... did it only when he wanted.... I would call him retired...

As I said, I do not know how much money MMM is getting blogging... I have seen on TV that a good number of people make really good money doing it... if MMM is one, then blogging is his job... kind of like writing for a newspaper... you have to crank out a certain number of columns to keep your readings coming back... If he gets NO money (or very little) from his blog, I would say he is retired and can do a few jobs on the side, make money and still be 'retired'....

As I said, I just do not know.... but I do think that there is a distinction that does matter... the millionaire mommy was clearly working even though she seemed to indicate she was not... all she did was promote herself and her writing... I do not see that with MMM, but I really do not know if he is or is not....
 
Texas Proud said:
Heck, I have not problem with people making money on the side when they are retired.... I had a BIL who did it for many years... ran a small yard light installation company... did it only when he wanted.... I would call him retired...

As I said, I do not know how much money MMM is getting blogging... I have seen on TV that a good number of people make really good money doing it... if MMM is one, then blogging is his job... kind of like writing for a newspaper... you have to crank out a certain number of columns to keep your readings coming back... If he gets NO money (or very little) from his blog, I would say he is retired and can do a few jobs on the side, make money and still be 'retired'....

As I said, I just do not know.... but I do think that there is a distinction that does matter... the millionaire mommy was clearly working even though she seemed to indicate she was not... all she did was promote herself and her writing... I do not see that with MMM, but I really do not know if he is or is not....
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I don't want to sound like I'm a rabid defender here, but there have been a few posts of his indicating that he is using the blog revenue to form some sort of charity. Also, he was making money on Credit Card referrals from his website, but the card company didn't like a word in his motto plastered on the top of the website "Badassity". So, instead of bowing to the revenue generator of those referrals, he just stopped working with them.

Whether or not you believe that he uses the blogging money is on you... but doesn't Nords have a blog and a book that he says goes to charity? How is this any different?
 
bo_knows said:
Also, he was making money on Credit Card referrals from his website, but the card company didn't like a word in his motto plastered on the top of the website "Badassity". So, instead of bowing to the revenue generator of those referrals, he just stopped working with them.
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But have you noticed that there is no word "Badassity" across the title anymore? It is currently hidden on the coin.
Also, your post is incorrect and you might want to re-read the blog post about it. Chase dumped him while he was trying to explain why he has this word in there. It had nothing to do with "MMM stopped working with them".
 
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This thread reminds of something P.T. Barnum is supposed to have said. Anyone remember what it was?

Ha
 
hsv_climber said:
But have you noticed that there is no word "Badassity" across the title anymore? It is currently hidden on the coin.
Also, your post is incorrect and you might want to re-read the blog post about it. Chase dumped him while he was trying to explain why he has this word in there. It had nothing to do with "MMM stopped working with them".
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I think that he had the option of removing the word and continuing to work with them... and he didn't.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that top banner is changed on a regular schedule. He had a contest to have a new banner put up there, and he's rotating through the entries because he liked so many of them.

Either way, I don't really care. I just find it hard to believe people are tearing into a guy who's primary message is "LBYM". That's what I get most out of it.
 
Texas Proud said:
As I said, I do not know how much money MMM is getting blogging... I have seen on TV that a good number of people make really good money doing it... if MMM is one, then blogging is his job... kind of like writing for a newspaper... you have to crank out a certain number of columns to keep your readings coming back... If he gets NO money (or very little) from his blog, I would say he is retired and can do a few jobs on the side, make money and still be 'retired'....
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Funny thing is he probably "blogs" and posts less than a lot of people on this site... only he collects he revenue from all of the ad click-thrus. Vs the owner of ER.org who makes the money.
 
bo_knows said:
Either way, I don't really care. I just find it hard to believe people are tearing into a guy who's primary message is "LBYM". That's what I get most out of it.
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People are tearing him up for a few things:

- "He is phony". haha said it best. His $25k / year budget is also phony, since he does not account for many things, including Hawaiian vacations, etc.

- His message does not match to what he does. He tells you "LBYM" while he is taking vacations to exotic places. There is nothing wrong with the vacations, but message & substance don't match.
He tells you to dump a car and ride a bicycle, yet he drives a car across the country and back (Den to Toronto) himself.

- He tells you to "save the planet" and "reduce consumption", yet his CO2 footprint last year from travel was much higher than for an average American family.

- His advice about 4% SWR is bad.

On a positive note: there are a few good posts on his blog and there are plenty of very good posts on his forums.
 
As to his rent - I have a property that grosses 3k/ month that I purchased/ rehabbed for 205k total. I can easily see him having one property bring that amount of net $'s in as I expect mine could in a few years.

As a younger guy, I read his blog fairly regularly. I would definitely been on his path, living off rents by 35, etc but I'm getting married shortly. The fiancé relates better to this forum's early retirement strategies. Lots of value in both!
 
hsv_climber said:
People are tearing him up for a few things:

- "He is phony". haha said it best. His $25k / year budget is also phony, since he does not account for many things, including Hawaiian vacations, etc.
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I don't want to do your homework for you, but when you attack someone like this, you really should look to see if he does account for these things. He accounts for vacations in all of his previous budgets, and had a very detailed blog post about his costs in Hawaii. Are you just making this stuff up?

- His message does not match to what he does. He tells you "LBYM" while he is taking vacations to exotic places. There is nothing wrong with the vacations, but message & substance don't match.
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The guy went to hawaii for 49 days on $2800 and will probably still have the same yearly budget... how is that not the same message? He worked around many obstacles to achieve that vacation in a LBYM manner...:confused:

He tells you to dump a car and ride a bicycle, yet he drives a car across the country and back (Den to Toronto) himself.
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His entire family spent $680 on gas for the entire year last year... He almost exclusively uses that car for such trips and bikes locally. I don't follow your logic.

- He tells you to "save the planet" and "reduce consumption", yet his CO2 footprint last year from travel was much higher than for an average American family.
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I personally haven't seen that message on the site, but I don't really look for it. I have no stake in that claim.

- His advice about 4% SWR is bad.
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That's the first piece of useful criticism, in my opinion. Talking about actual strategies of ER, rather than ad hominem attacks on the guy.
 
bo_knows said:
I don't want to do your homework for you, but when you attack someone like this, you really should look to see if he does account for these things. He accounts for vacations in all of his previous budgets, and had a very detailed blog post about his costs in Hawaii. Are you just making this stuff up?

The guy went to hawaii for 49 days on $2800 and will probably still have the same yearly budget... how is that not the same message? He worked around many obstacles to achieve that vacation in a LBYM manner...:confused:
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I've read it, but did you?
His budget line clearly states "we ignore Hawaiian air ticket because it was paid by the blog". How is it accounting in the budget?
He also did illegal activity with the lodging. If you are a contractor and your client provides you lodging instead of pay then you need to account that, report the proper value to IRS and then account for that in your budget.
Otherwise, the company that I work for, can just deliver food to my house, pay my mortgage and we can skip the money & the IRS.

Here it is from IRS website:

Non-cash Income Taxable income may be in a form other than cash. One example of this is bartering, which is an exchange of property or services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged is fully taxable and must be included as income on Form 1040 of both parties.
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http://www.irs.gov/uac/Taxable-or-Non-Taxable-Income?
 
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bo_knows said:
I don't want to sound like I'm a rabid defender here, but there have been a few posts of his indicating that he is using the blog revenue to form some sort of charity. Also, he was making money on Credit Card referrals from his website, but the card company didn't like a word in his motto plastered on the top of the website "Badassity". So, instead of bowing to the revenue generator of those referrals, he just stopped working with them.

Whether or not you believe that he uses the blogging money is on you... but doesn't Nords have a blog and a book that he says goes to charity? How is this any different?
Click to expand...


It does sound like you are a rabid defender.... heck, I even put in my post that if all of his blogging money is going to charity then I would call him retired... (maybe go back and read what I posted)....

Just because you get rid of one advertiser does not cut it IMO.... if you have ads that you get paid..... you have ads.... it really does not matter who is paying you....

So, to boil it down... if he is using blogging money to live, then that is his job... if all his blogging money is going to charity, then it is his hobby... like I have said a number of times, I do not know what he is doing... heck, I don't CARE one way or the other....



Heck, to make you feel better, let's say his is retired and leave it at that...
 
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hsv_climber said:
I've read it, but did you?
His budget line clearly states "we ignore Hawaiian air ticket because it was paid by the blog". How is it accounting in the budget?
He also did illegal activity with the lodging. If you are a contractor and your client provides you lodging instead of pay then you need to account that, report the proper value to IRS and then account for that in your budget.
Otherwise, the company that I work for, can just deliver food to my house, pay my mortgage and we can skip the money & the IRS.

Here it is from IRS website:



Taxable or Non-Taxable Income?
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So, again, you should really do your homework. Can you provide a source where he says that the plane tickets were paid for by the blog? Can you show where he says he'll ignore that cost?

The Hawaii Project: Final Numbers and a Few Pictures | Mr. Money Mustache I'll help you out. Here is the post with the overall budget, and at the end of the post is all the other Hawaii posts. None of which say anything but "We bought discount airfare tickets".

As for the contractor "compensation"... you're really stretching.

To be clear to others: I'm more of a rabid defender of people spouting unfounded truths on the internet. If you can provide any actual posts that say he ignores large swaths of his budget, then I will be the first to agree with you. Other than that, you should really take his word for it. If I didn't have a mortgage, I'd be pretty darn close to $25k/yr too.
 
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daylatedollarshort said:
Driving from Denver to Toronto round trip @ 30 mpg would cost about $400 in gas alone according to MapQuest, without any other side or day trips.

So they ride their bikes to and from the grocery store in winter in Colorado to save on gas? Really?
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Yeah, really. They aren't the only people on the planet, or even this country, that do so either. It's not that hard to believe.
 
bo_knows, yes, it is all on this page:
Exposed! The MMM Family

- "MMM's hawaii flight accounted for as blog business."

- Clear to see from the numbers that Hawaiian lodging was not included. He did barter it, but he was supposed to report it to IRS (by law) and then show it as "expense" in his budget. It is not there and he never mentioned it on his blog that he reported it to the IRS.
 
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Has anyone here read "Living Stingy" blog?

I believe the guy who wrote it quit in beginning of 2013 but I thought he made a TON of good points for the 5 years or so that he wrote his blog...

Actually I think you can get a lot of useful information from many different sources on early retirement, but MOST of them stress living below your means as a way of achieving the goal....so as long as one can learn something to further that goal, that would be a good thing, no?
 
hsv_climber said:
bo_knows, yes, it is all on this page:
Exposed! The MMM Family

- "MMM's hawaii flight accounted for as blog business."

- Clear to see from the numbers that Hawaiian lodging was not included. He did barter it, but he was supposed to report it to IRS (by law) and then show it as "expense" in his budget. It is not there and he never mentioned it on his blog that he reported it to the IRS.
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You're really stretching with the bartering for lodging thing. If I couch-surf on my brother's couch when I stay in Miami, do I report that to the IRS?

As for the flights, it looks like you're partially right. His 2 family members paid and he did not. He must be a total fraud. I wonder of Nords pays on his own dime for the Financial Blog conferences (serious question, I wonder if other bloggers count that as a personal expense or not).

While I think that is a bit of a shady oversight, I also see that his budget would be under $26k even if he included it. *shrug* Your insinuation that his total budget is impossible is a bit offensive to a lot of people that live it.
 
I think that MMM's ideas regarding LBYM are pretty good (although his ideas are not exactly new). I don't really care about the rest. I especially don't get why people adulate his persona so much, it feels a bit cult-ish sometimes.
 
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daylatedollarshort said:
So they ride their bikes to and from the grocery store in winter in Colorado to save on gas? Really? Even the buffalo look pretty cold in this pic

Reader photo: Buffalo roam through Longmont-area snow storm - Longmont Times-Call
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Actually, most of the time the climate here is fairly conducive to outdoor activities if you are not in the foothills/mountains (Longmont, Denver, etc. are not up there). If you can pick your days (as opposed to being forced to get it doen on the weekend), its even more doable since you can just skip doing errands on the coldest days. Dress appropriately and its not an issue. Since moving here I now own several pairs of insulated pants and other similar clothing so I can do my thing outdoors in the winter.
 
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