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Old 04-23-2009, 08:33 AM   #41
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Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.
+1
This mind side is ingrained in men from the start and it applies even if they are not the primary breadwinner. Men are much more likely to feel unable to leave a toxic work situation without a clear alternative job. Our self worth is tied in with being or being able to be the breadwinner.

I can easily understand that, uddenly tossed on the unemployment pile, many guys can succumb to a total loss of self worth. I imagine this is worse for a middle aged guy who was already burning out and saw FIRE on the horizon but suddenly has that snatched away. The future looks hopeless and suicide looks like a good way out.
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Old 04-23-2009, 12:45 PM   #42
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I find Shawn's long post about the company's articles and the difference between the use of men and women...

My old company (before the new CEO etc.) had recognized that 'men', and more specifically 'white men' were not represented by anyone... so they decided to correct this and assigned this duty to a woman executive... who already had a full plate but was expected to do this on the side...

Nothing ever happened with this and it died when management changed... I just thought it ironic that a woman was put in that spot...
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:47 PM   #43
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Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't.
Well, if all they are looking for is consciousness for 15 hours a day, I fit the bill.

BTW, I know Shawn's stats may sound "ugly", but they are true. The lack of focus on men's issues in this country is pervasive enough that when someone merely brings up easily verifiable stats without even putting too big a political spin on the issue, it can seem like a diatribe.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:21 PM   #44
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More female poets appear to committ suicide than male poets. Is that because there are more female poets than male poets? I read the obituary of Deborah Digges, the latest suicide among poets, and it just seemed she lost the will to live after her husband's death. And her act of suicide was not the "typical" method of choice for women.

Clinical depression can cause suicide. (BTW, The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression, is a riveting study of depression with its linkeage to suicide.)
OMG. I knew her, long ago. What horrible news. I can't believe it.

Suicide among women is usually linked to loss of a relationship. Among men, loss of self image, self esteem. Clinical depression is sometimes a factor but often these suicides have a good reason to be depressed and if the life factor wasn't present they wouldn't be depressed, at least not to the extent of being suicidal. As far as the pressures on men vs women. I have no idea what that's like for men and men have no idea what the pressures on women feel like. That's all I know.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:52 PM   #45
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Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't.
Or perhaps the conscious ones are most of us who are not interested in putting up with BS from impossible to please women who care not a whit about us.
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:54 PM   #46
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Or perhaps the conscious ones are most of us who are not interested in putting up with BS from impossible to please women who care not a whit about us.
Amen!
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:02 PM   #47
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Ok fellas, just relax....I have a glass of wine in my hand (see avatar), I'll share.
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:44 PM   #48
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Ok fellas, just relax....I have a glass of wine in my hand (see avatar), I'll share.
If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:53 PM   #49
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If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...
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Old 04-23-2009, 09:54 PM   #50
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Are men more sensitive than women then? I don't have one girlfriend ever even threaten to kill themselves over some guy they were in love with. Depressed and sobbing, yes, but suicidal really? No. Just my experience.
Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women. Who knew that was really true? What a little eye-opener this is. I appreciate your honesty about this subject. Thanks.

Well, I don't know the answer to your question. Perhaps the American male is not as romantic as the male from other countries. That can be the subject of another thread.

But I couldn't resist this. This is the perfect excuse for me to post the song "Mourir d'aimer" ("To die of love") from Charles Aznavour. I have included the French, English, Spanish and also Italian versions of this song.

In case you have not heard of Aznavour, following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

Charles Aznavour, OC (Armenian: Շառլ Ազնաւուր; born Shahnour Varenagh Aznavourian (Շահնուր Վաղինակ Ազնաւուրեան)[1], May 22, 1924, Paris) is an Armenian-French singer, songwriter, actor and public activist. Besides being one of France's most popular and enduring singers, he is also one of the most well-known singers in the world. He is known for his characteristic short figure and unique tenor[2] voice; clear and ringing in its upper reaches, with gravely and profound low notes. He has appeared in more than 60 movies, composed about 1,000 songs (including at least 150 in English, 100 in Italian, 70 in Spanish, and 50 in German[3]), and sold well over 100 million records.[4]

In 1998, Charles Aznavour was chosen as Entertainer of the Century by CNN and users of Time Online from around the globe. He was recognized as the century's outstanding performer, with nearly 18% of the total vote, edging out Elvis Presley and Bob Dylan.






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Old 04-23-2009, 10:21 PM   #51
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If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...
Hey, who are you calling cold? I resemble that remark.
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:18 AM   #52
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If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...
Ah, flattery...
Keep it coming, men.

I am learning a lot from this discussion. It has opened my eyes to a lot of what I am watching dh2b go through in his transition from the old life in hell to the new life in heaven. No details necessary.
TY so much for the insight. I really mean that.
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Men's vs. Women's
Old 04-24-2009, 06:29 PM   #53
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Men's vs. Women's

My understanding was that men defined themselves mainly by what they did -- either with their hands or keeping score with $$. Take that away (economic downturn, being fired, becoming disabled, or getting old, etc.) and there wasn't much left.

Women defined themselves by what they were, or thought they were, 'inside.' In their 'hearts.' In addition to having other women as a support, their sense of self-worth was being womanly (wife, homemaker, companion, caregiver, etc.). Many of women's suicides revolved around the gray area of 'relationships.'

Just my 4 cents worth (100% inflation on 2 cents).
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:48 PM   #54
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My understanding was that men defined themselves mainly by what they did -- either with their hands or keeping score with $$. Take that away (economic downturn, being fired, becoming disabled, or getting old, etc.) and there wasn't much left.
A lot of insight here I think. I knew a young guy years ago who was a logger (choker setter). He got an ankle injury that meant that he could no longer hop up and down and from tree to tree and he was devastated. In the end it turned out well for him- he went to university on his Viet-Nam vet benefits, became a mathematician and got a job with a defense firm.

Ha
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:05 PM   #55
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I never understood the whole suicide over money. Heck this is the USA! Go bankrupt and start over again. That's what makes the country great... Not the bankruptcy part, but the starting over part. We all have the opportunities.
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:16 PM   #56
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Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.
+2
This man was a guest speaker invited by a liberal club to talk about the book he wrote for NOW (National Organization of Women). His research attempted to explain the paradox of why women, generally, are underpaid. To put it kindly, many business leaders are highly motivated and focused on the success profit of the business. Economics and the "invisible hand" are at work here, too. So greedy business managers would forsake profits to hire overpaid males so that they can enforce gender discrimination? This is the paradox.

In his answer he clearly explained gender bias and life. I hope I can pull off a clear explanation in this post. Job classifications are "naturally" gender biased. This is because the male must provide food, wealth, cattle or a second hand car so that he can attract mates. When I was in high school, I quit sports so that I could work part time to buy a second hand car. Why?

The system was set up to favor male occupations (this is all generalizations of course). Society has changed (?) it's values but the occupation structure remains. A women usually needs to enter a "man's" field to make the higher wage. These occupations (think blue collar) are generally more dangerous / hazardous and with shorter life expectancies. Going back to explaining the paradox, generally speaking, there is no discrimination.

Bottom line in society as in nature, males are not really needed after they provide for the young. This and their self concept is tied to employment in much the same way as the female's is tied to nurturing child rearing.

The sad truth as related to the thread is that we are not much better than the male black widow spider. We work hard and die early so that our spouses can have it all. This is our purpose. When you take away livelyhood, the thin veil of civilization is not enough to keep the ugly truth out.

This is way too long and poorly written. Cannot come up with the speakers name or the book where he explains it all.

Free to Canoe

PS I know and understand that there was and is gender discrimination.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:06 AM   #57
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If only all women were as cool as the ones on the board...
Brewer was referring to frigid women in his post above......
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:31 AM   #58
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Brewer was referring to frigid women in his post above......
Eh, nothing so mundane as what goes on between the sheets. I was referring to women with impossibly high expectations and absolutely no interest in what their prospective partner might want. Throw a rock and you will generally hit one.
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Old 04-25-2009, 02:00 PM   #59
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Can someone explain to me why so many men (and it's never the women) commit suicide when their company is going down?
I'll tell you the reason is a very simple one. In today's modern society, financial success (bread provider) is what literally defines masculine identity.

If a woman loses her job and has to rely on her male spouse for help when the economy is hard hit, it is socially acceptable for her to stay home and spend extra time with the children until the job market improves. It's considered "unfortunate" and she'll have a shoulder to go home to cry on. The couple may even decide later that it is better that she stay home entirely and become a homemaker.

If a man loses his job, even through no fault of his own (e.g., layoffs, company closures, etc.), he is automatically treated as a worthless "bum" upon coming home. In the eyes of female his spouse, his relatives and even in the eyes of other men who know him, he is a "dead beat" who is not worth his own salt. There could be fewer than one jobs for a hundred unemployed in his town, but as long as he doesn't have one, he is to be reviled as an object of shame and scorn. Just when he needs help and reassurance the most, he is given the extra leg-down by all who know him. His very existential being and fulfillment of social obligations relies upon him consistently being entrepreneurial and innovative. If there is no way, he must hurry to invent one or be forced to eat a bowl of concrete and have bricks thrown at him upon returning home with his head held down.

This is a very very rigid model, still ingrained to this very day and people don't like when it is challenged. Anyone who is a stay-at-home dad or part of a gay couple can tell you this.

One guy I know who is part of a male-female couple stays at home as a homemaker while his wife is a high-powered corporate attorney. They would rather the father (who was a full-time accountant), stay at home and spend time with the kids during the developmental years than sit around all day around the office. She makes enough money for both of them to afford the mortgage and to retire comfortably in the next 15 years. She prefers he stays home and she thinks he's much better with the kids than she is, since attorneys can be too serious and too tired and stressed out to spend time changing diapers and answering questions about Sesame Street. What I remember most is what he told me about daycare, the PTA and men's restrooms. Men are almost always treated as pariahs in these organizations. It doesn't matter if you have your kids with you, they still tend to look at you funny and see you as some sort of weirdo child-molester type if you are nurturing and affectionate toward kids. Men's restrooms for the most part still lack diaper-changing stations. It's as if these sorts of things should only concern women. A stay-at-home dad is regarded as someone who "shouldn't be mooching off his wife" and "needs to get a real job", as if parenting weren't a hard enough task to begin with!
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Old 04-25-2009, 02:30 PM   #60
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What I remember most is what he told me about daycare, the PTA and men's restrooms. Men are almost always treated as pariahs in these organizations. It doesn't matter if you have your kids with you, they still tend to look at you funny and see you as some sort of weirdo child-molester type if you are nurturing and affectionate toward kids.
Vouch. My older daughter goes to a cooperative preschool where parents commit to being in-classroom helpers (essentially teachers aides) a half dozen times a semester. I am one of 2 or 3 dad's who ever show up to be a helper and I am one of the few who sometimes shows up to pick their kid up after school. In most cases, the moms will say hello to me and that's about it, despite the fact that several will typically stand around chatting while the kids run around for 15 minutes after school officially lets out.
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