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Old 04-25-2009, 02:57 PM   #61
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Maybe you intimidate them. They would not want their overtures to be misconstrued....

(I was a Beaver Leader for 5 years and got to understand the complexities of dealing with moms and dads. I was going to write a book about it but too much time has passed.)
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:50 PM   #62
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Back to original question, I imagine that there is something in common with the fact that most murderers are men. Aggression is part of the package.
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:16 PM   #63
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Back to original question, I imagine that there is something in common with the fact that most murderers are men. Aggression is part of the package.
OK, but I don't believe that aggression has much to do with suicide. I'm not a push over, but I still don't enjoy hitting myself in the face that much, and I would imagine that I'd enjoy even less so pointing a gun at my head and pulling the trigger.

As for what another person said earlier, yeah, I think we are still operating under the old rules while women have a few options under the modern model. I got the pressure from my old school uncle last Christmas. He kept saying, "Why don't you be a man and support a woman?" I'm thinking, unless I got the woman pregnant, why the heck does he assume that a woman needs my support?
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:57 AM   #64
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Testosterone clouds judgement, sometimes leading to self-destructive behaviour. Ask Uncle Mick.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:20 AM   #65
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I have seen some very good points made by our male contributors which make a lot of sense. I do believe there are different expectations for males and females, especially when it comes to supporting your family. I can see where a man would be made to feel like a failure if he lost his job whereas for a female many people would probably blather about it being an opportunity for her to stay home with her family.

However, I have to add that we are not all awful creatures. My husband is the most important person in my life and if he were to lose his job tomorrow or something happened to him healthwise it would not change the way I feel about him. For me it is not about the money, because with the money but no DH I would feel like I had lost my future. I do know the type of women you are referring to as I see them every day on a women's message board I am a member of. The selfishness of some of these creatures blows my mind, but it does give me a reminder of what I never want to be.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:33 AM   #66
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I have seen some very good points made by our male contributors which make a lot of sense. I do believe there are different expectations for males and females, especially when it comes to supporting your family. I can see where a man would be made to feel like a failure if he lost his job whereas for a female many people would probably blather about it being an opportunity for her to stay home with her family.

However, I have to add that we are not all awful creatures. My husband is the most important person in my life and if he were to lose his job tomorrow or something happened to him healthwise it would not change the way I feel about him. For me it is not about the money, because with the money but no DH I would feel like I had lost my future. I do know the type of women you are referring to as I see them every day on a women's message board I am a member of. The selfishness of some of these creatures blows my mind, but it does give me a reminder of what I never want to be.
Are we related?
Excellent post, excellent.
I think the guys here who have not been burnt, and maybe even some that have, realize that all women are not avaricious golddiggers. Sadly, so many of our gender are. Case by case.
I have had the displeasure of observing 2 dear friends (1 man, 1 woman) and of course dh2b go through divorces in the past few years. The Ozzie and Harriet mindset on the benches for the 2 men was astounding. The men got clobbered with paying for more than 50% of the joint marital debt in spite of strong evidence showing the female ran up the credit bills. HUH?
The woman friend, however, was left saddled with a $30K home equity loan that her now-ex ran up on non-house related bills. It was either that or give up half her 401(k), established prior to their marriage. Her fault for putting his name on the line of credit against her house (not theirs) in the first place. But it was the judge's fault for not looking at the record of charges with her ex's signature on them, that she and her lawyer brought to court .
In all 3 cases, it was all about the money.
So where is the equity ? It doesn't exist.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:49 PM   #67
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Are we related?
Excellent post, excellent.
I think the guys here who have not been burnt, and maybe even some that have, realize that all women are not avaricious golddiggers. Sadly, so many of our gender are. Case by case.
I would like to say that I have no problem with women as a group, or most female individuals. However, the social and legal structure of our current society make it risky to find out how it might go. A young guy who wants kids, he should get married, because even if the marriage eventually hits the wall you do have those kids.

I am unable to understand why a middle aged man would want to get married. I am always finding out things about the women I know that stayed hidden for years. I think the average marriage lasts longer than 7 years- how many of us have known our spouse-to-be longer than that? Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

So a small part of the problem is true gold-diggers, and a larger part just that you really have little predictability. It's like owning a condo with no earthquale insureance in an earthquake zone. It can fall down, stop delivering the services for which you contracted, and you still have to keep paying.

Yet if he gets a girlfriend and isn't very discrete about it, he is at his wife's mercy if she should decide to make a play for a better than 50/50 split, based on his infidelity.

Ha
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:07 PM   #68
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Testosterone clouds judgement, sometimes leading to self-destructive behaviour. Ask Uncle Mick.


Like watching too much football - among other things.

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Old 04-27-2009, 01:10 PM   #69
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I am unable to understand why a middle aged man would want to get married.
Ha
My guess would be for love...or someone to help him find his socks.....
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:21 PM   #70
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My guess would be for love...or someone to help him find his socks.....
Get a goldfish.

ha
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:25 PM   #71
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Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

Ha
Part of the problem I believe is we all get too complacent. We have been married nearly 16 years and I would be a liar if I said we have never had rough patches. However, those rough patches have been due to complacency. I look at myself and am disappointed at what I have let myself become, what has become of the woman that my spouse married? It's too easy to believe that this is what middle age looks like. As to regards the sex, if we spent 5% of the time that we waste watching TV or on the computer towards wooing our other half we would all be a lot happier. The problem is during the courtship stage most of us shag ourselves stupid. However, once the responsibility of being an adult sets in, we let the mundaneness of life take over and forget who we were.

I'm sad for the woman that you mention Ha, because you know what - she is cheating herself out of what her life could be. Sad to think that someone is willing to go through the motions of living for the sake of a few quick bucks rather than putting herself out there and living a truly fulfilled life.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:58 PM   #72
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...However, the social and legal structure of our current society make it risky to find out how it might go.
...I think the average marriage lasts longer than 7 years- how many of us have known our spouse-to-be longer than that?
...Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension!...So a small part of the problem is true gold-diggers, and a larger part just that you really have little predictability... and you still have to keep paying.
Ha
No argument here.
I am watching the "keep paying" live and in concert with dh2b. It sickens me. And he was relatively protected by federal statute that no local judge could "interpret" or override. I fed his attorney all the governing regulations and legal citations. The good news is it is not forever. There are time limits on each payout except his military retirement. Whew!
But this lady you mention really sickens me. What she is doing is nothing short of $ hostage holding.
Way too many men I have known over the years have jumped in with both feet, only to be taken to the cleaners when the earthquake happened.
As a financially and psychologically independent woman, I do not want anyone's pension, any more than I would want anyone helping themselves to mine.
Re: 7 year average, dh2b will have an 8 year total wait, poor guy. The same laws that govern our collective benefits prevent us from saying "I do" without me losing substantial survivor benefits. Go figure. He has a bucketload of benefits to offer me. It's a stalemate.
The good news is we are willing to wait.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:11 PM   #73
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Part of the problem I believe is we all get too complacent. We have been married nearly 16 years and I would be a liar if I said we have never had rough patches. However, those rough patches have been due to complacency. I look at myself and am disappointed at what I have let myself become, what has become of the woman that my spouse married? It's too easy to believe that this is what middle age looks like. As to regards the sex, if we spent 5% of the time that we waste watching TV or on the computer towards wooing our other half we would all be a lot happier. The problem is during the courtship stage most of us shag ourselves stupid. However, once the responsibility of being an adult sets in, we let the mundaneness of life take over and forget who we were.

I'm sad for the woman that you mention Ha, because you know what - she is cheating herself out of what her life could be. Sad to think that someone is willing to go through the motions of living for the sake of a few quick bucks rather than putting herself out there and living a truly fulfilled life.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:53 PM   #74
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This thread has been thought-provoking.

I am not sure why men commit suicide more than women. I would think there are many factors.

It is interesting that you hear a guy pretending to go to work in front of his family even after he got laid off/fired, etc. Women would never do that IMO.

I know a couple... both hustand and wife in their early 50's at the time if not late 40's. A husband told his wife who has been working for years that she should quit her job (I think the reason was that she really hated her work environment). She quit her work and she never found another job and he was OK with it. The husband said he made enough money for both of them. Women would never do that for her husbands IMO. Several years later, he got laid off, and has been having difficulty finding a job. Now what.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:00 PM   #75
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Just a few days ago a friend (friend only) told me that she hasn't slept with her husband for 5 years. She no longer works either- she cooks and cleans well, but that is her contribution. So I asked how he felt about all this. He doesn't like it, she said. Aren't you afraid that he will leave you I said. No, he couldn't afford to give up half of his pension! And they both made their first marriage at age 40, and were in love as most people are when they get married.

Ha
That is a real sad story. Money is the only reason they are together? I'm sure there are many hidden factors behind the whole thing, but on the surface it looks very sad.

I saw on Oprah (or was it Suze Orman show) a couple who wanted to get a divorce but they couldn't afford to live separately until they could sell their house they were living in, but the house wasn't selling, so they still lived together.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:39 PM   #76
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That is a real sad story. Money is the only reason they are together? I'm sure there are many hidden factors behind the whole thing, but on the surface it looks very sad.
I did not think that money is necessarily the only reason that they are together. However it doesn't appear to be love any longer, and for his part I think he is a little or more than a little fed up, but he is in a bind. She respects him I think. But let's be realistic- they do not LBYM, they live in an expensive city, and she would be in deep poop without him paying the bills, providing health insurance and equally important being entitled to a good public sector pension. And he would join the legions of guys trying to get along on half his pay, then half his pension. Half at best, because the juge may decide that he has to make her whole with respect to health insurance or whatever he in in the mood to do that day. Same fo rher, her standard of living wojuld take a big hit if she were forced to go with 1/2- and she would have teh health insurance issue to deal with.

Is she going to commit economic hara kiri and go looking for love? He may sneak some here and there, but is he going to lay himself open to big losses by openly dating some other woman?

In a sane world they could stay together, get their own lovers but stay respectful of one another and not be taking big risks. But our world is no longer sane.

People like many on this board who escape these heavy emotional predicaments are doing an excellent job, and maybe also getting some help from God.

Ha
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:47 PM   #77
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I have seen some very good points made by our male contributors which make a lot of sense. I do believe there are different expectations for males and females, especially when it comes to supporting your family. I can see where a man would be made to feel like a failure if he lost his job whereas for a female many people would probably blather about it being an opportunity for her to stay home with her family..

But I don't buy that a man will kill himself because he can not support his family... very few men carry enough life insurance to support a family, so him killing himself is the WORST thing he can do when it comes to his family... who does he think will take care of them now? Especially if there are children and the wife has not worked in many many years... they will go into poverty or be struggling until she can get her life turned around...
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:39 PM   #78
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Society places such heavy expectations on men and so little on us women. If I, as a woman, don't achieve much and lack ambition nothing much is ever said about it by anyone. It's just accepted. However, it seems that if a man doesn't have much ambition...whooo, boy! he is really put-down for it by most middle and upper-class families, anyway.
The other thing I never got over is that I always had my own house after I divorced when my son was 2-1/2, and you would never believe how many people made comments about how "wonderful" it was that I bought a house..all by my little ole self. What's the big deal?
I'll guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot--and a man was in the same position as a single parent with a house--nobody would say anything much about it being so "wonderful" that he had a house for his child to grow up in.
There are some really big inequities in our thinking when it comes to the expectations we have for men vs. women.
Not only is this unfair to the men, but the common attitudes about women actually holds us women back!!! We have a looooong way to go with this equality thing.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:53 PM   #79
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My guess would be for love...or someone to help him find his socks.....
Sooo - I guess in Missouri it's ok to have an SO - she suggested goldfish so I bought six of them(38 gallon). Boy can those suckers poo. Had to go talk to another lady at the fish place - change water periodically, feeding habits, water chemicals, and lighting.

At least I know where my socks are now.

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Old 04-27-2009, 06:14 PM   #80
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