Men: Why is suicide the answer to business losses?

[saluki9]

I'm no psychologist but I would guess it has a lot to do with men identifying themselves by their profession. When you lose that job, business, etc your identity is gone and it makes it easier to see your life having little value.

[CuppaJoe]

Quote:

David Kellermann,... was found dead at his home early Wednesday in what police said was an apparent suicide.... The police would not release the exact cause of death, but spokesman Eddy Azcarate said Kellermann's body was found in the basement.

How routine is it to disclose apparent suicide but not the exact cause? I wonder why they couldn't keep the apparent suicide part confidential as well? Maybe we could lighten this up with ideas like they didn't contribute to the policemen's ball. Naw, doesn't work.

[saluki9]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuppaJoe How routine is it to disclose apparent suicide but not the exact cause? I wonder why they couldn't keep the apparent suicide part confidential as well? Maybe we could lighten this up with ideas like they didn't contribute to the policemen's ball. Naw, doesn't work.

My cop friend explained that they report suicides so the neighbors don't panic thinking there is a killer on the loose.

[Orchidflower]

Are men CONSCIOUS of how difficult society has made it for them I wonder?
As a woman I know many of us are conscious of the expectations that society has placed on us. The woman who isn't nurturing (which is expected of women) tends to be somewhat of an oddball among women (my apologies to all female board members who don't consider themselves nurturing).
So men are aware of how they are "supposed" to act as a man, but are men aware of how difficult their role is in life? Very unfair situation for men I've always thought.

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuppaJoe Regarding the stats, does anyone know if or how they factor in the suicides that are recorded as due to some other cause such as accident so that the family won't have the stigma, burial can be in consecrated ground, the insurance will pay, and so on. I doubt that I am the only one here who knows deep down that someone, say, committed suicide by automobile.

Our local obituary euphemism is "died suddenly."

[Amethyst]

My totally unscientific notion is that more prominent professional men than prominent professional women kill themselves, because there are many more of them.

I'm much more concerned by the recent "rash" of fathers murdering their family members. Does it not seem as if that horror has been on the rise lately? If a man's wife leaves him and his pride can't stand it, why does he have to kill their children, too?

I suspect we will never know the answers to such questions, and thank goodness all the men I've known would rather throw themselves off a bridge than see wife or children harmed.

[Nords]

I think we need to wait to see what news Freddie Mac has been inadvertently hiding from the shareholders. The guy's had the job for six months and the winter weather was just about over... so I suspect there's information we haven't heard yet. Reminds me of the Enron exec who took the same permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Hmm... Somehow I think most guys know the reason, but avoid saying it (taboo?) Here's my reason what I heard: Men do it because they can't stand the idea of losing their wife/girlfriend/mistress. In stories, love for a man lasts forever, regardless of his financial situation. In life, well, that's another story.

I've personally known three military veterans who committed suicide on active duty:
- Anger/despair over ex-spouse re-opening child custody battle several years after divorce. Subsequent investigation determined that the ex-spouse's allegations were unfounded.
- Protest over the way a CO was treating the submarine crew. Veteran had just been awarded restriction at UCMJ proceedings by that CO. The suicide succeeded in getting the CO relieved a month or two faster than it would have happened anyway. The CO was incompetent but certainly not as bad as the ones who make the headlines.
- Murdered adulterous spouse and then committed suicide when police arrived a few minutes later. Adultery had been in progress for at least two years and spouses had been talking through the situation for at least a year. Murderer ultimately thought this was necessary to salvage personal honor.

Each one of these people was a chief petty officer or a senior E-6 who would have easily been selected for CPO within the next couple years. Each one was a command "Sailor of the Year" on sea duty and two of them were ranked #1 at our training command. Each was a great leader, always ready to lend a hand where needed, skilled at building a team and getting things done. However each had also made detailed plans for "if this happens then I'm going to kill myself" without anyone around them having a clue. Each was also apparently blind to the trauma and disruption they'd cause through their deaths-- both among their shipmates and their families. I'm going to use the word "blind" because I still have trouble believing that they'd be so damn inconsiderate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuppaJoe Any ideas about picking up on the signs that a guy might take that option?

Studies & statistics indicate that the ones who want help will dangle plenty of danger signs and hints, along with unsuccessful attempts. They'll talk it through and act it out. The ones who want to commit suicide will probably succeed in both executing their plan and in hiding it from you. So if you had no idea then it's probably not your fault and not something you could have reasonably expected to prevent.

And I still have trouble believing that too.

[summer2007]

The pressure society puts on people is no help.

Everything has to be a competition and 2nd best is never good enough.

I was watching the food channel....it's my Grandma's favorite channel! And you would think that it would be a nice peaceful relaxing shows about cooking food. Well some are but they actually have food competitions now that are totally high stress and totally unnecessary!

I mean you can't even COOK FOOD without a competition.

Also look at how malicious society is. The media just loves to plaster someone all over the tv or papers and totally humiliate them and their family.

Some of the suicides and attempts on suicide are from this garbage. I'll list a few women that were victims since this is mostly about men.

Remember the D.C. madam?

Did she have to be humiliated and die for doing what she did? ...IMO no way!

Look at that girl that was on Nancy Grace that killed herself after feeling betrayed by Nancy Grace.

Do we need to humiliate people on tv to get ratings?

Or look at Casey Anthony's Dad. Can you imaging going through that?

Do we need to have people protesting outside someone's house 24-7?

And also the just horrible malicious things that are done to people just to hurt them. Look at that 13 year old girl that hung herself after an older lady got online and pretended to be a boy interested in her and then told her basically that the world would be better off without her. And after causing this poor girl's death I bet she will suffer no consequences at all.

Is there any need to be that malicious to ANYONE?

If stuff like this changed and society became far far far less malicious and also didn't put the pressure on people that it does I think you would see the suicide numbers come way down.

Jim

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidflower Are men CONSCIOUS...

No, we're zombies.

Regarding the thread topic, I'd guess that in many cases there's a bunch of unresolved personal problems, and it just seems like an acute financial setback 'causes' someone to commit suicide. In other cases, there's an unresolved 'hardware' problem, such as chronic depression.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidflower Are men CONSCIOUS of how difficult society has made it for them I wonder?

Some are, one would imagine. As for the pressures society puts on men, if you have never been the sole breadwinner for a family, I can't explain the sense of urgency that stays just below the surface until you lose your livelihood, upon which time it is full-blown panic or nearly so.

Why do men commit suicide so much more often than women? Society puts pressure on both sexes (although admittedly different ones). But men are driven by biology and society towards concrete action and failing to produce results doesn't stop the drive toward action of some sort. And what is the ratio of men to women at any firing range you have ever been to? The tendency of men toward concrete problem solving (how do I kill myself with certainty?) no doubt ups the odds as well.

[Orchidflower]

Come on, socca, you took that "Are men conscious" out of context. Play fair at least.
There are alot of societal expectations that are placed on women. Act like a lady, don't be too loud, keep your legs together when you sit, be nurturing and kind, etc. etc. The female that doesn't conform is criticized. Same thing that happens with men who don't conform to the norm.
It just seems to me that there is MORE pressure to conform on men than women. Heck, I've broken every "rule" about acting like a lady at one time or another, but being a woman we can get away with it better than a man can it seems.
I think men get a raw deal often in life. Too much pressure to conform? Maybe, depending on the person's wiring, it is, and they just can't tolerate the pressure.
Brewer brings up an interesting point: what is the ratio of men to women at a firing range. When I have been at one I've always been the only woman to the point other men walk up and ask me what I'm doing there. Does that answer anything? And this was in Texas where you expect more women to shoot. But I do know more than one feminine/straight/in fact, sexy gal in Houston who exercised her right-to-carry.
(I also have been the only woman who brought her young son to professional boxing matches in Houston, and guys would actually lean over and ask me if I really liked boxing. I do.)
It just seems men have so many more "rules" about how they must conduct themselves than we women do. Unfair situation for you men, really. I wish I had the answers.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Hmm... Somehow I think most guys know the reason, but avoid saying it (taboo?) Here's my reason what I heard: Men do it because they can't stand the idea of losing their wife/girlfriend/mistress. In stories, love for a man lasts forever, regardless of his financial situation. In life, well, that's another story.

Spot on, IMO, whether it is a conscious realization or not. What happens to formerly good providers who lose their ability to bring home the proverbial bacon? Frequently not a happy marital outcome.

[Orchidflower]

Are men more sensitive than women then? I don't have one girlfriend ever even threaten to kill themselves over some guy they were in love with. Depressed and sobbing, yes, but suicidal really? No. Just my experience.
Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women. Who knew that was really true? What a little eye-opener this is. I appreciate your honesty about this subject. Thanks.

[DangerMouse]

I think women probably have an easier time admitting they are suffering from depression and seeking medical help. This is just a guess, but I would think that for men they would feel there is a bit of a "stigma" of admitting they are not able to cope, they are more likely to feel inadequate if they take medication or seek assistance.

I know of two friends who have each had a sibling commit suicide. In both instances it was a brother, both had been depressed and made attempts before succeeding. The fallout from these suicides is awful, I see what my friends and their families go through, and how each of them is destroyed in their own way as they shoulder the blame for what happened.

[Shawn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by summer2007 Bottom line is that men have a lot of problems and stress in their lives but there is no real effort to help them. Jim

Indeed. Men and boys face enormous problems, and society looks the other way. Suicide, secondary school drop out rates, illiteracy, homelessness, college enrollment, male-only-draft, family court, reproductive freedom, incarceration rates, work place fatalities, funding for health care, violent victimizations, the justice system, longevity, drug abuse, domestic violence, discriminatory laws, incarceration rates, and the list goes on.

I used to track the (lack of) focus about men by my employer. In my organizations weekly newspaper, from 1995 to 2005, there were 479 articles specific to women or women's issues, compared to 6 articles specific to men or men's issues. In its online version, the ratio was 378 to 6. In the same online version, from 1996 to 1999, the word "woman" or "women" appeared 256 times. The word "man" or "men" appeared 17 times (and 12 of these were in the phrase "men and women" or "women and men"). My employer announced and funded a "Women's Health Initiative." It was announced during men's health awareness week (bonus points to anyone who can tell me when men's health awareness week is - heck, bonus points to anyone who even knows that there is a men's health awareness week). I have a long list of these things.

Point is. My employer is no different than society as a whole. While there are many factors contributing to the disproportionate number of men who commit suicide, the bottom line is that society doesn't care.

It's why there are 5 government-funded offices on women's health, but 0 offices on men's health. Bipartisan legislation to establish an office of men's health has always failed.

According to society, we need to focus our attention on women and girls because men are 4 times more likely to commit suicide; men are 90-95% more likely to die in workplace accidents; men live 6-7 years less than women; funding for prostate cancer research is 20% that of breast cancer research even though both are about as deadly; men receive harsher sentences for similar crimes (e.g., men who murder are 10 times more likely to receive the death penalty than women who murder); boys are now about 40% of college students (even though demographically there are more boys of college age than girls); men are 2.5 times more likely to be victims of violent crime (but we have a multi-billion dollar "Violence Against Women's Act"); boys/men dominate in homelessness, drug addiction, and illiteracy; 99.98% of the 55,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam were men, but we have a dedicated women's memorial honoring the "special sacrifice" made by women; and so on.

That is why men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Society doesn't care about men.

But I'm optimistic. Perhaps Obama's newly established "White House Council on Women and Girls" will rectify some of these problems. Maybe the new administration can get the percentage of male college students down to 25%-30% where it belongs.

[Shawn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amethyst I'm much more concerned by the recent "rash" of fathers murdering their family members. Does it not seem as if that horror has been on the rise lately? If a man's wife leaves him and his pride can't stand it, why does he have to kill their children, too?

While your comments are well taken, contrary to popular myth, mothers are more likely to kill their children than fathers. But when mothers kill, we make excuses (there's often a man to blame somewhere). When fathers kill, well, men are just bad.

[bbbamI]

This thread is getting ugly.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbbamI This thread is getting ugly.

And accurate.

Ha

[socca]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchidflower Maybe what they say about men is true after all: men are more romantic and sensitive than women.

This doesn't jive with my experience. After all, considering the entire animal spectrum, sperm-carriers often (but not always) have much less invested in a relationship than egg-carriers.

Regarding the above 'zombie' quote, I was referring to the large number of personal ads placed by women looking for a man who is 'conscious', implying (accurately, IMHO) that the majority of men aren't.

[ChrisC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Point is. My employer is no different than society as a whole. While there are many factors contributing to the disproportionate number of men who commit suicide, the bottom line is that society doesn't care. That is why men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Society doesn't care about men. But I'm optimistic. Perhaps Obama's newly established "White House Council on Women and Girls" will rectify some of these problems. Maybe the new administration can get the percentage of male college students down to 25%-30% where it belongs.

There's a surreal irony to your comments -- aren't we men, for the most part, in control of society? Let me add this notion of suicide, when based on clinical depression, it's generally the act of a very disturbed mind that has placed his self-interest above everything else -- it's not an act of compassion as it leaves the survivors in shambles and in the long run might be the most destructive thing one can do to loved ones.

Also, I think we have to really refine the definition of suicide if one is going to compare the reasons for why men take their own lives more than women in our society. There are "homicide-suicides" which seem to be in a class by themselves as opposed to the solitary acts of suicide and there are "suicides" that are really acts of rational thinking and mentally adjusted people like those who engage in euthanasia.