Millennials and Work.

[brewer12345]

What are the facts? Slower population growth is associated with a rising standard of living. Are millennials having fewer children, or are they having children at a later age than their parents? The real decline in the US birth rates is seen in teens and unmarried young women, while in women over 30 it's rising.

Appreciate everyone's effort to keep a friendly tone in what often ends up being a difficult subject to discuss.

Meh. The self actualizing childless will never admit they contributing to a massive tragedy of the commons, so I see little point in debate. We are headed for a Japanese population model. Say what you like, but that is unlikely to work out long term.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Meh. The self actualizing childless will never admit they contributing to a massive tragedy of the commons, so I see little point in debate. We are headed for a Japanese population model. Say what you like, but that is unlikely to work out long term.

We probably aren't headed for a Japanese population model for one key reason - immigration. Japan greatly restricts immigration (always has), so population growth from faster reproducing immigrants isn't an option. Contrast this to Europe, which has had a similar reproduction rate decline and chose to address the problem by encouraging immigration from the Middle East, India, etc.... The downside, if you want to call it one, is that the "native" culture of many European countries is slowly dying off. Then again, this is how it's always been where immigration is encouraged.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I have kids in that Millennial generation and have had the opportunity to watch them along with their Millennial friends grow up together. Now sure, it is a small sample size, a dozen or thereabouts, but I certainly don't see any aversion to hard work, or for them trying to get something for nothing. Maybe partly because of the economic difficulties they have seen their parents go through from 2000, 2008 and now. They do seem to understand what they are up against economically.

But there are also another side I see. They want to work hard and make money, but not doing something that hurts the environment by pollution or contributing to global warming, etc. They are very much into protecting the environment in whatever they do.

In addition, while my boomer generation tried to help eliminate racism and sexism from life, they don't even see it. They don't seem to even see distinctions of race, gender, or sexual orientation in their world view. In my boomer generation we would sometimes pride ourselves in the advances in fairness to differences in race or religion. These Millennials don't even understand what we are talking about. What would race, gender or sexual orientation have anything to do with anything? I doesn't seem to matter at all to them.

These similarities seem to cut across the spectrum of those kids with conservative leanings and those with liberal leanings (usually mirroring their parents).

I see them wanting to get educated, knowing that hard work is necessary, realistic about the future, but at the same time wanting to protect their environment. A small sample size, but from what I see, they will do well and make us proud (if not even a little envious that we could achieve as much as they will).

 

[kombat]

Raising kids is hard work and extremely expensive. The costs are largely borne by the parents, but society as a whole benefits. Many of the younger generation(s) have simply decided to skip the hard work and expense in favor of amusing themselves (or whatever). This did not work out so well for Japan.

Do you think Boomers had all those kids for the good of society, or because they wanted kids and thought it would be rewarding (i.e., self-indulgent)?

 

[dallas27]

I dont have kids, and i never will. But i coach high school sports. Parents generally are happy to give me their children, and often request that i beat the crap out of them.

So rent, don't own.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[brewer12345]

Do you think Boomers had all those kids for the good of society, or because they wanted kids and thought it would be rewarding (i.e., self-indulgent)?

It does not really matter. What matters is that they had the kids.

 

[mpeirce]

I think there is an innate bias to think one's generation is better than all subsequent generations, especially when comparing to the most current one.

I don't know about that.

I've always been annoyed that I was part of the "baby Boomer" generation. I don't "identify" with much of the stereotype.

Lumping people into groups based on something like birthday seems kinda silly to me. But that's probably just me being ornery.

 

[MikeWillRetire]

In addition, while my boomer generation tried to help eliminate racism and sexism from life, they don't even see it. They don't seem to even see distinctions of race, gender, or sexual orientation in their world view. In my boomer generation we would sometimes pride ourselves in the advances in fairness to differences in race or religion. These Millennials don't even understand what we are talking about. What would race, gender or sexual orientation have anything to do with anything? I doesn't seem to matter at all to them.

These similarities seem to cut across the spectrum of those kids with conservative leanings and those with liberal leanings (usually mirroring their parents).

I see the same things with my high school and college age kids. It's a good thing.

 

[kombat]

It does not really matter. What matters is that they had the kids.

Of course it matters. You accused the abstainers (the child-free) of being "self-indulgent," in a way that suggested great disdain. Your tone was with their motives as much as it was with their actions. I'm merely pointing out that those who reproduce have the exact same motives (i.e., self-indulgence), merely different values. Neither did what they did for the good of society. Moreover, a case could be made that those who have abstained from having children are the ones actually providing the most benefit for society, as many models suggest that the planet is already over populated.

 

[aaronc879]

Of course it matters. You accused the abstainers (the child-free) of being "self-indulgent," in a way that suggested great disdain. Your tone was with their motives as much as it was with their actions. I'm merely pointing out that those who reproduce have the exact same motives (i.e., self-indulgence), merely different values. Neither did what they did for the good of society. Moreover, a case could be made that those who have abstained from having children are the ones actually providing the most benefit for society, as many models suggest that the planet is already over populated.

I agree. We don't need a greater rate of re-production. A google search will show that the US population has gone up close to 1% every year from 1970-2010. There hasn't been much of a reduction in the growth of the population in the last decade but even if there was, why is that a bad thing. Maybe it means there's better education in contraception leading to less unplanned pregnancies by those not mentally of financially ready for children. No one should ever feel obligated to procreate.

 

[brewer12345]

Of course it matters. You accused the abstainers (the child-free) of being "self-indulgent," in a way that suggested great disdain. Your tone was with their motives as much as it was with their actions. I'm merely pointing out that those who reproduce have the exact same motives (i.e., self-indulgence), merely different values. Neither did what they did for the good of society. Moreover, a case could be made that those who have abstained from having children are the ones actually providing the most benefit for society, as many models suggest that the planet is already over populated.

As I said, the childless lotus-eaters are unlikely to agree with anything other than their chosen lifestyle. So be it. I can see you are getting upset, so I will leave you to go your separate way.

I do have to wonder: if people are so concerned that the earth is overpopulated, why are they not either committing suicide or killing people?

 

[steelyman]

I am childless, not by choice.

What it means to me is to pay more attention to "extended family". I appreciate the children of friends.

 

[NW-Bound]

I'm starting a separate thread so as not to hijack imoldernu's excellent discussion on the future of work.

My question is this: Are the workers of the Millennial Generation a different breed altogether?

I see the millennial generation who seem to have a better balance of work/play and wonder if the future of 'work' is about things like working from home, taking a lot of time off and (seemingly) willing to make less money in order to spend more time with friends (i.e. hang out in coffee houses at 2pm) etc.

They may 1) view us oldsters who killed ourselves "for the company" as out of balance OR 2) they believe that they can't really get ahead and, as a result are defining different values i.e. making the best of a bad situation.

Cars, nice houses and nice clothes seem to be secondary to not working too hard/too many hours and having time to do more personal things. A shared apartment in the city with a bicycle seem to be more valued than a highly successful high paying career.

Personally, I find their perspective a bit of heresy ("those lazy bums; get a real job!") but I do often wonder if they got it right instead of those of us who often gave up so much for career and the 9 to 5.

Comments?

The younger generation, meaning my offsprings, my nieces, and nephews, seem willing to spend money and to enjoy life more than we were at their age. For example, one of my nieces took time off from work without pay to spend a month in Europe. I would not think of such thing when I was in my 30s.

Who's to say that they are wrong? Is our old paradigm of working our ass off, saving to the max hoping to enjoy our wealth in retirement age better? As long as they are not in debt and manage to save some money, I do not see what's wrong with it.

 

[razztazz]

Cars, nice houses and nice clothes seem to be secondary to not working too hard/too many hours and having time to do more personal things. A shared apartment in the city with a bicycle seem to be more valued than a highly successful high paying career.

Comments?

This is exactly the position I took even before my teens, once I figured out the world. I would gladly forego more money in exchange for not having to do stupid sht in exchange for money. I can do arithmetic though. Life can't be all "balance". (Defined as: --What *I* want to do--) So, I did what I had to do for as long as I had to, and not one minute longer, to get where I wanted to be. If The Millenials have found a way to blow off "The System", more power to 'em. Maybe their M.O is just to spread it out over a lifetime instead of, like us, compartmentalizing life into PART-A followed by PART B, etc

 

[imoldernu]

Sheesh... after reading most of these posts, it sounds as if many folks here are starting to... umm (how should I say this)

get old?

 

[M Paquette]

Sheesh... after reading most of these posts, it sounds as if many folks here are starting to... umm (how should I say this)

get old?

Whaaaaaat?

 

[steelyman]

Sheesh... after reading most of these posts, it sounds as if many folks here are starting to... umm (how should I say this)



get old?

Start looking at The Man In The Mirror?

 

[kombat]

As I said, the childless lotus-eaters are unlikely to agree with anything other than their chosen lifestyle.

Heh, I suggest you Google the "Religion of Parenthood." The first link ("How American Parenting is Killing the American Marriage") is an interesting read.

I can see you are getting upset, so I will leave you to go your separate way.

I apologize if I gave the impression that the topic upsets me, Brewer. I admit that as a child-free by choice, and having been questioned on this decision more than once, I have strong feelings on the subject and am, by default, a little defensive. But I assure you, it no longer upsets me. I'm quite comfortable with our choice.

I merely wanted to point out that parents cannot play the "martyr" card, as though they did what they did for society's sake, while calling the child-free "selfish" (or, in your case, "self-indulgent"). The truth, of course, is that both groups made their choices for self-indulgent reasons. The only difference, temporally, is that more recent cohorts appear to recognize that the rigors of parenthood are significant and long-term, whereas preceding generations may have been more prone to "drink the Kool-Aid" and accept the belief that it would somehow all be worth it.

I do have to wonder: if people are so concerned that the earth is overpopulated, why are they not either committing suicide or killing people?

Is that a serious question? Just because someone chooses not to reproduce doesn't mean they lack empathy for their fellow man. There's an enormous difference between taking a life that's already here, and merely preventing a potential life from coming into being.

 

[purplesky]

The digital addiction that millennials have is really disturbing.

I love my Mac and iPhone and XPS Dell. But this cell phone addiction thing with young people is over the top.

With my job I go to some Universities and many different types of businesses.

I swear millennials just seem to be on Facebook all damn day. How many hours do people actually do real work.

My kid is a millennial in college and he cannot be without his damn cell phone at all. His friends are all the same way.

They text and stare at that cell phone 24/7. Cell phone zombies!! Yes I sound old.

 

[steelyman]

The digital addiction that millennials have is really disturbing.

I love my Mac and iPhone and XPS Dell. But this cell phone addiction thing with young people is over the top.
.

Adults are the same way. I've been on two trips lately where the gadgets ruled. I just didn't talk to those people till they got it out of their system.

 

[purplesky]

Adults are the same way. I've been on two trips lately where the gadgets ruled. I just didn't talk to those people till they got it out of their system.

Yes. When I go snowboarding and skiing I am amazed at how many people stop in the middle of a ski trail to check their damn phone.

 

[bad_LNIP]

I saw this thread and thought of this:

Wong, Leonard. Generations Apart: Xers and Boomers in the Officer Corps

I found this was very interesting when I read it in college. Essentially Baby boomers view themselves as their jobs. Gen X (my generation) see's themselves as their activities, social groups, friends, family, etc.

If you ask a boomer what they do, they may respond with "I am a General", but if you ask a Gen X, they may answer, I play rugby, cook, am involved in cause abc, oh and I am in the Army.

Looking at all that, do you really have to wonder why Millennials question the wisdom of following the same path? While it may sound cynical/selfish, many are asking "what's in it for me?" This isn't a bad question to ask about most things in life, unless one is feeling charitable/generous.

Amen to that. I saw my parents do the working for the man thing for 25+ years only to get downsized in the latest round of layoffs. I love my parents, but that's not the life I want, per se. I've already lived it watching them grow up and for part of my life.

I look ahead and A see the same thing every day, which isn't particularly enticing, and B I see many people who are doing stuff that I would never want to do. If that's all there is, I need to do something else.

Jack Reacher Freedom - YouTube

I prefer Jack reacher's thoughts on freedom.

 

[bUU]

As I said, the childless lotus-eaters are unlikely to agree with anything other than their chosen lifestyle. So be it. I can see you are getting upset, so I will leave you to go your separate way.

Rolling back a bit...

... I see little point in debate.

I now understand your earlier comment better. You don't want to debate your personal opinion. You want everyone to simply kowtow to it and abide by your personal preferences in this regard, and you're prepared to try to evade reasonable and substantive challenges to your preferences by name-calling, puerile attempts to insult people who disagree with you, and other assorted rhetorical tactics.

 

[donheff]

We probably aren't headed for a Japanese population model for one key reason - immigration. Japan greatly restricts immigration (always has), so population growth from faster reproducing immigrants isn't an option. Contrast this to Europe, which has had a similar reproduction rate decline and chose to address the problem by encouraging immigration from the Middle East, India, etc.... The downside, if you want to call it one, is that the "native" culture of many European countries is slowly dying off. Then again, this is how it's always been where immigration is encouraged.

+1. The US has been very successful with immigration. Our millennials can have their Euro child-replacement-rate cake and eat it too. That said, my crazy son has three kids. DD can go with one and between them they are still at Brewer rates.

 

[eytonxav]

I don't know about that.

I've always been annoyed that I was part of the "baby Boomer" generation. I don't "identify" with much of the stereotype.

Lumping people into groups based on something like birthday seems kinda silly to me. But that's probably just me being ornery.

Well that has been the basic theme of this thread, differences between the age groups. Your comment basically supports what I was trying to imply, its kind of silly to make such comparisons/criticisms as we all grew up in different times and circumstances and I suppose there is a tendency that we each think our personal values/mores are the best. I am a boomer and have no problem with millennials, genxers or others.