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Old 09-08-2008, 08:03 AM   #21
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There are no free markets. We interfere all the time. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:23 AM   #22
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There are no free markets. We interfere all the time. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Well, I think there is a lot wrong with it (with a few exceptions). Since when did frequency make something right? That seems especially odd coming from a lawyer.

Martha, can you give examples where interfering with free markets has helped overall (not just specific people/groups)?

The exceptions that come to my mind are: pollution controls, and generally things that fall under the 'tragedy of the commons' scenario. Some government regulation seems to be required for the common good. But I think those should be approached carefully, and done in as much of a free market way as possible (tax/fine the pollution, let the free market figure out how to reduce it rather than legislating specific technologies like hybrid cars).

And before anyone throws out that straw man, no, I'm not in favor of govt subsidies or industry specific tax breaks to business. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Old 09-08-2008, 03:50 PM   #23
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Who pays minimum wage anyway? Even the McDonalds here in the middle of no where Ohio pays $9.50. You have to pay more to attract people to do the jobs. If you are working for minimum wage your just not trying hard enough. You could find more by one hours worth of hunting.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:03 PM   #24
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Who pays minimum wage anyway? Even the McDonalds here in the middle of no where Ohio pays $9.50. You have to pay more to attract people to do the jobs. If you are working for minimum wage your just not trying hard enough. You could find more by one hours worth of hunting.
Ahhh, a fine example of the market taking care of itself.

How many of those employees would be working at McD's if the minimum wage were $25 an hour? Probably none because the wages would not justify opening the store in the first place. Another fine reason to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:13 PM   #25
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Who pays minimum wage anyway?
I'd have to google to find the link, but I read recently that something like 1.2% of wage earners earn min wage.

My recent experience with this is that two of my kids got jobs in high school. They started out at min wage. One was a small family owned business, the other a small corp. The only way those businesses could afford to pay a higher wage would be to raise prices. Offhand, the money seemed OK for the job requirements. If it wasn't my kids would have looked elsewhere. AFAIAC, restaurant prices (for example) are high enough - I don't see why they should pay bus boys more, if they can get bus boys to do the job at $X.

I'm still waiting to hear someone explain why price fixing is OK. Why would I want the govt to set wages, any more than I would want them to tell business owners what price they should set on the products we buy? What value does that add?

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Old 09-08-2008, 04:32 PM   #26
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Sorry, I can't help. I took the pledge.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:53 PM   #27
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Old 09-08-2008, 06:34 PM   #28
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Free markets are a good thing. Still, what with all the financial shenanigans that result in funny money stock options and golden parachutes, it's hard to begrudge someone earning $6.55/hr...
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Old 09-08-2008, 06:37 PM   #29
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Those sign flippers make at least 10 an hr.
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:30 PM   #30
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Free markets are a good thing. Still, what with all the financial shenanigans that result in funny money stock options and golden parachutes, it's hard to begrudge someone earning $6.55/hr...
True, but I don't think it helps to look at it that way. You don't right a wrong by monkeying up somethin' else. I thinks that's why we have so many laws and so much tax code. Address the problem.

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Old 09-08-2008, 07:40 PM   #31
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Just expressing empathy for someone who could probably make more on food stamps and welfare. It's a reality that some folks will be stuck doing **** jobs for **** pay. But it's worth remembering the old saw about each part of the body - brain, heart, lungs, etc. - bragging how they were most important.........until the colon shut down.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:01 PM   #32
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Just expressing empathy for someone who could probably make more on food stamps and welfare. It's a reality that some folks will be stuck doing **** jobs for **** pay. But it's worth remembering the old saw about each part of the body - brain, heart, lungs, etc. - bragging how they were most important.........until the colon shut down.
Fair enough. And for the record, I'm serious when I ask for good reasons to support a min wage. I have a strong preference for free markets, but I do think there are exceptions. This may, just *may* be one of them.

oooops almost stopped, can't get off the soap box (hey - we are in 'Other topics' - wudda-ya-know!) that fast....

It's a reality that some folks will be stuck doing **** jobs for **** pay.

True. But I still question, is it best to mess with the pay scale of *every* low wage employee (like HS kids on their part time or summer jobs), or is it best to try to deal with the specific problems that some people may have. It's hard for me to picture someone being stuck in a min wage job for very long, unless that person has some disability (maybe slight). Or is it just easier, more effective to use the 'rising tide' approach? I honestly don't know.

I still feel that since a min wage is something that requires an action, that those proposing the action bear the burden of proof that it will help. I've heard the arguments that it could raise the prices of goods (affecting the poor the most), that it could result in fewer jobs (counter-productive). No doubt there is something to that, but I have no idea if the good outweighs the bad or visa versa. So unless the govt can prove there is an overall benefit to society, I think they should stay out of it.

But I am willing to listen to reasoned input. You just might convert me.

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Old 09-08-2008, 09:35 PM   #33
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IMHO, it's not sound economic theory, and is arguably a wash as social policy. Heck, I might even vote for Ron Paul, though I prefer Les Paul.

As a "human" issue, the folks that change our tires, clean our toilets, mow our yards, and diaper our kids (and grandparents) work pretty danged hard for not much reward.

Empathy is not really a political philosophy...
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:55 PM   #34
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IMHO, it's not sound economic theory, and is arguably a wash as social policy. Heck, I might even vote for Ron Paul, though I prefer Les Paul.
Lester William Polsfuss for president! I'm going to get some bumper stickers and yard signs printed! I've had enough of this Obama/McCain debate!

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Old 09-08-2008, 10:02 PM   #35
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Lester William Polsfuss for president! I'm going to get some bumper stickers and yard signs printed! I've had enough of this Obama/McCain debate!

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Try getting that name on the headstock of a guitar...
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:05 PM   #36
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Try getting that name on the headstock of a guitar...
LWP - That's what Paul Reed Smith had to do.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:16 PM   #37
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True. But I still question, is it best to mess with the pay scale of *every* low wage employee (like HS kids on their part time or summer jobs), or is it best to try to deal with the specific problems that some people may have.
This is the argument for the Earned Income Credit, which I think has merit. I honestly haven't given it the study time to fully know whether it's the right approach or not, but it's intended to give some help to those who need it without the ill affect on market forces (i.e. wage pressures, etc.).

I don't think there are any perfect answers to this, but I do think we have to find a way to take care of some of those in our society who just won't be able to earn much of a living but are willing to work hard. Believe me I'm not a bleeding heart but we do have to find some middle ground answers between pure capitalism and pure socialism. The hard question is finding where the sweet spot is, now isn't it?
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:20 AM   #38
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I fancy myself an amateur humorist and curmudgeon-in-training, in the great tradition of Mark Twain, or Dave Berry. Granted, I may not be particularly good at it, but if my posts were processed through that filter, their true lack of meaning might be clearer...

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I was trying to point out the irony, if you will, of the pilfering of America using extra-legal means by CEOs, lobbyists, Congresscritters, and such, whilst we argue about the minimum wage.

Strict-constructionist arguments aside, seems there are bigger fish to fry than the 1.2% of workers who get min wage...
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:46 AM   #39
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I was trying to point out the irony, if you will, of the pilfering of America using extra-legal means by CEOs, lobbyists, Congresscritters, and such, whilst we argue about the minimum wage.

Strict-constructionist arguments aside, seems there are bigger fish to fry than the 1.2% of workers who get min wage...

I agree that those are problems. But this thread is not titled 'Should we reign in CEOs and their Board of Directors...?', or 'What are the biggest problems facing the USA today...?',

it is titled 'Minimum Wage. Eliminate it, or get rid of it...?*'


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Old 09-09-2008, 08:48 AM   #40
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Not bad!
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