Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-07-2014, 11:03 AM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 3,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post

For a while I watched a TV show called UnderCover Boss, where the owner/CEO/Big-Cheese in a company would pretend to be a low level employee and find out what is really happening in the company.
I watched a few of these episodes and began to wonder if it weren't a "made up" scenario for "good" TV. I simply could not relate to the "big boss" and his/her "cluelessness" about his/her own business and his/her own employees and their relationship to the organization. Nor could I understand the cluelessness of some of the employees who couldn't (almost instinctively) understand that the business's "business" was to make money, and NOT just be a wonderful employer to them (because they were such wonderful, deserving, high school dropouts.)

But I also knew from experience that bosses and employees have a natural "divide" which just goes with the territory. My direct reports "loved" to show me up about minor things I could not do that they could (specific use of instrumentation, for instance.) I might have to re-read the manual to make the most of an instrument's capabilities while they did such things routinely - because that was their j*b. Then, they resented me when they had a two-day problem they couldn't figure out and I would take a look at their outputs and solve their problem in 15 seconds. It's just the nature of the beast and not necessarily "cluelessness" in all cases.

I think a lot of it just goes back to human nature which is, IMHO, much of what leads to the issues surrounding OP. YMMV as always.
__________________

__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-07-2014, 12:24 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
Have any of you run into this attitude, on FB or elsewhere?
Only on FB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
Do you bother to argue with them?
Never. Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig. [Heinlein]
__________________

__________________
braumeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 12:27 PM   #43
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 8,802
There's a reason I'm not on facebook. LOL
__________________
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 01:04 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
I watched a few of these episodes and began to wonder if it weren't a "made up" scenario for "good" TV. I simply could not relate to the "big boss" and his/her "cluelessness" about his/her own business and his/her own employees and their relationship to the organization.
I also wonder about so called reality shows and how orchestrated they are. I thought several times about bringing it up at all in this thread. I probably should have found better examples of how the 'big boys and girls' are out of touch with what the common people experience.

In retrospect the recent article about the 'poor door' that middle income people must use to gain access to their subsidized apartments in New York would have been a better example.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 01:52 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
As I have said my main concern is that the very wealthy are so very disconnected from the rest of society that they don't know what it means to have to struggle to have the basics in life.
True, but so is the reverse. Few workers truly understand the massive overhead or risks of running a business. Or the concept that their jobs ultimately depend upon their company's success....the output of good products/services at competitive prices. It might seem nice if your company suddenly doubled your wages, but not so nice later on if it destroyed the company's financial viability.... and your job along with it.
And to be fair- Not all the rich were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. There are a number of wealthy folk who DO know what it means to struggle for the basics because they did so for part of their lives. They tend to be the ones who truly give back in meaningful ways.
__________________
ERhoosier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 01:57 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
MooreBonds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
As I have said my main concern is that the very wealthy are so very disconnected from the rest of society that they don't know what it means to have to struggle to have the basics in life.
Apart from an unrelated example of "undercover boss", what metric are you using to determine that those with wealth are 'out of touch' today compared to times past, other than appearances in news stories and headlines? Did you feel the same way in 2005? What changed between 2005 and now (other than news broadcasts)?

How do charitable contributions compare between, say, 1790 vs 1850 vs 1950 vs today?

Did people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who lived on vast tracts of land and had slaves and servants, actually "understand" the plight of those that were starving to death if their small plot of crops failed? Did they give vast sums to charities to feed the masses?

Did people like Andrew Carnegie in the early 1900s truly "understand" the plight of the commoner? While it's great that Carnegie donated a large % of his wealth for the arts - do you realize how many people even in his day had to go to great extremes just to get a decent amount of calories to eat?

And when Buffet and Gates are so obsessed with AIDs and handing out free condoms in Africa, while millions of adults and children worldwide still die from incredibly basic things like lack of clean water and sanitation, is that really 'being in touch' with them, despite donating the bulk of their wealth to a charitable organization?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre1969 View Post
According to this site, IRS Finds One in 189 High Earners Paid No 2009 U.S. Tax - Bloomberg , in 2009 1 out of every 189 households with an AGI over $200,000 managed to avoid paying any federal taxes. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into depths over how they do it. However, if they had all their money in tax-free municipal bonds, that would do it, wouldn't it?

Also, if you own stock in a foreign company, you have to pay a foreign tax on the dividends, but then you get a credit against your federal tax for that same amount. So, if all my income came from, say, Toyota stock, I might get by with paying no federal income tax, although I would be paying the foreign tax.
The article you linked referenced a combination of factors that lead to that small % not having a net taxable income: municipal interest, large health care expense deductions, and charitable contributions being large, common factors. But since any taxpayer at any income level could also end up with zero tax liability with large enough health care expenses and large enough charitable contributions, is it really a big surprise? We're talking 0.26% of the high income earners in a one-year snapshot (2009) - and the article mentions it's the highest % since 1977.

And don't forget that 2009 was a very good year for adult diaper manufacturers, given the stock market crash. That would result in considerably less interest and dividends and capital gains income in 2009 than would normally be expected by the high % income earners. So with much lower interest/dividends/capital gains to declare, but the same amount of medical bills and charitable donations and municipal interest, it would be expected to see a higher % that end up with no taxes than during the boom boom years of almost every year in the past 30 years, save maybe 2001, when most years saw annual increases of wages/dividends/interest/capital gains by the high earners.
__________________
Dryer sheets Schmyer sheets
MooreBonds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 10:27 PM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERhoosier View Post
True, but so is the reverse. Few workers truly understand the massive overhead or risks of running a business. Or the concept that their jobs ultimately depend upon their company's success....the output of good products/services at competitive prices. It might seem nice if your company suddenly doubled your wages, but not so nice later on if it destroyed the company's financial viability.... and your job along with it.
And to be fair- Not all the rich were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. There are a number of wealthy folk who DO know what it means to struggle for the basics because they did so for part of their lives. They tend to be the ones who truly give back in meaningful ways.
IMO creating an honest and successful business is giving enough. I went out to dinner last night with 3 guys who live normal middle class lives, good jobs plenty money to spend on eating out. Most of what they talked about was the evil rich. Morons.
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2014, 10:46 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERhoosier View Post
True, but so is the reverse. Few workers truly understand the massive overhead or risks of running a business. Or the concept that their jobs ultimately depend upon their company's success....the output of good products/services at competitive prices. It might seem nice if your company suddenly doubled your wages, but not so nice later on if it destroyed the company's financial viability.... and your job along with it.
And to be fair- Not all the rich were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. There are a number of wealthy folk who DO know what it means to struggle for the basics because they did so for part of their lives. They tend to be the ones who truly give back in meaningful ways.
+1 I find that many people with "normal" mid-level jobs tend to resent high income workers without understanding the hours and stresses that go along with many high income jobs (long workdays, weekend work, on call 24/7, high pressure deadlines, etc). They resent the higher income others earn but if they were told that they needed to work till 3 am or pull an all-nighter to meet an important business deadline they would have a fit and probably refuse to stay. They also don't appreciate the lack of job security of many high income jobs - you can be gone with the snap of a finger for no particular reason at all compared to the due process associated with mid level employees.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 11:36 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
.......They also don't appreciate the lack of job security of many high income jobs - you can be gone with the snap of a finger for no particular reason at all compared to the due process associated with mid level employees.
So true. Some have had to live the rest of their lives on only a $100 million payout, or so.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 12:11 PM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
IMO creating an honest and successful business is giving enough. I went out to dinner last night with 3 guys who live normal middle class lives, good jobs plenty money to spend on eating out. Most of what they talked about was the evil rich. Morons.
So, why hang around with morons?
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 12:14 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,318
Some people are hard working and deserve the rewards they get.

Others are "mad, bad and dangerous to know".

We admire people like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk who built very successful organizations that brought prosperity to many others.
OTOH, who admires the guys who lobbied Congress to give cable companies monopolies in their service area.?
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 01:12 PM   #52
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
MooreBonds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 2,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
We admire people like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk who built very successful organizations that brought prosperity to many others.
OTOH, who admires the guys who lobbied Congress to give cable companies monopolies in their service area.?
Sometimes, the only difference between Jobs/Musk and some of the "bad guys" is in the indirect positive PR from their products.

Jobs and Musk make "cool" products. That gives them a pass. It doesn't matter that Jobs refused to repatriate cash back to US shores to avoid paying taxes to the gov't, or offshored production to maximize profits in the environmental wasteland of Chinese manufacturing. And who cares if Musk is shopping around his new facility to maximize the whoring out that states are doing through kickbacks and income/property tax freebies to get him to build his plant in their state. He makes a "green" car (if you ignore various environmental negatives of electric cars).

But if another CEO did that? Round up the ropes and lynching squads! They're just greedy bastards.
__________________
Dryer sheets Schmyer sheets
MooreBonds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 01:59 PM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by MooreBonds View Post
Sometimes, the only difference between Jobs/Musk and some of the "bad guys" is in the indirect positive PR from their products.

Jobs and Musk make "cool" products. That gives them a pass. It doesn't matter that Jobs refused to repatriate cash back to US shores to avoid paying taxes to the gov't, or offshored production to maximize profits in the environmental wasteland of Chinese manufacturing. And who cares if Musk is shopping around his new facility to maximize the whoring out that states are doing through kickbacks and income/property tax freebies to get him to build his plant in their state. He makes a "green" car (if you ignore various environmental negatives of electric cars).

But if another CEO did that? Round up the ropes and lynching squads! They're just greedy bastards.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 02:21 PM   #54
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 8,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
+1 I find that many people with "normal" mid-level jobs tend to resent high income workers without understanding the hours and stresses that go along with many high income jobs (long workdays, weekend work, on call 24/7, high pressure deadlines, etc). They resent the higher income others earn but if they were told that they needed to work till 3 am or pull an all-nighter to meet an important business deadline they would have a fit and probably refuse to stay. They also don't appreciate the lack of job security of many high income jobs - you can be gone with the snap of a finger for no particular reason at all compared to the due process associated with mid level employees.
Hmmm. I think many mid-level workers ARE asked to meet extreme deadlines, work all-nighters, weekends, etc... and are laid off with a much reduced severance (say 4 weeks total), while the VPs that set the extreme deadlines might also be laid off - but with packages that are worth several years of the high salary.

All non-union employees are at risk of termination at the snap of a finger. But the compensation as you're walked out the door tends to be very disproportionate. I'm not sure what due process you're talking about - I'm talking about layoffs after projects are cancelled.... that effect everyone. No due-process... just pink slips for the workers, and parachutes for the upper management.
__________________
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 02:30 PM   #55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
Hmmm. I think many mid-level workers ARE asked to meet extreme deadlines, work all-nighters, weekends, etc... and are laid off with a much reduced severance (say 4 weeks total), while the VPs that set the extreme deadlines might also be laid off - but with packages that are worth several years of the high salary.

All non-union employees are at risk of termination at the snap of a finger. But the compensation as you're walked out the door tends to be very disproportionate. I'm not sure what due process you're talking about - I'm talking about layoffs after projects are cancelled.... that effect everyone. No due-process... just pink slips for the workers, and parachutes for the upper management.
I think pb4uski and you may be talking about apples and oranges. Here in Sillycon Belly, what you describe above is exactly what has been happening for years. Perhaps, pb4uski can clarify his position.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2014, 03:22 PM   #56
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,433
With all the comments and stories above it's easy to see it's not a worker friendly environment out there. I think most on this forum are an exception and realized this long ago. It's up to each of us to cut our own path and deal with it . It really doesn't matter if we're an employee, small business owner, VP or fat cat.
__________________
Retired in 2016. Living off dividends / interest and a mini pension. Freedom.
foxfirev5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2014, 09:00 AM   #57
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
photoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
Hmmm. I think many mid-level workers ARE asked to meet extreme deadlines, work all-nighters, weekends, etc...
This is basically what life is like for many workers (at all levels) in consulting firms. At one place I know it was not possible for a worker to meet their utilization (billing) hours and take their earned vacation without working substantial overtime. The same place is often described as a "pyramid scheme".
__________________
photoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 05:57 PM   #58
Full time employment: Posting here.
CaliforniaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: San Diego
Posts: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfirev5 View Post
With all the comments and stories above it's easy to see it's not a worker friendly environment out there. I think most on this forum are an exception and realized this long ago. It's up to each of us to cut our own path and deal with it . It really doesn't matter if we're an employee, small business owner, VP or fat cat.
+1 Very good point!
Products and industries come and go, sought after skills vary with time, we all have intrinsic value only to ourselves, our God, and with luck to our families. It is partly why I decided to leave my programming job and strike out on my own as an independent consultant over 30 years ago. Even though I was offered employment many times by my clients, I always found a way to gracefully decline. Everyone has to approach life differently, but in the end have to realize that we are really on our own. I often thought about how much more stability I had as a consultant, with no "guaranteed" income than were all the salaried folks who "felt" safe, but in reality were not. At least it forced me to realize that I was on my own, as we all are anyway.
__________________
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.
CaliforniaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 06:15 PM   #59
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,453
You are right about pensions being worth a ton of $. Both my hubby & I have small ones & if we live 25 years in retirement it is worth a million. Much more if we live to be a lot older.
__________________
Teacher Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2014, 08:41 PM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by MooreBonds View Post
Sometimes, the only difference between Jobs/Musk and some of the "bad guys" is in the indirect positive PR from their products.

Jobs and Musk make "cool" products. That gives them a pass. It doesn't matter that Jobs refused to repatriate cash back to US shores to avoid paying taxes to the gov't, or offshored production to maximize profits in the environmental wasteland of Chinese manufacturing. And who cares if Musk is shopping around his new facility to maximize the whoring out that states are doing through kickbacks and income/property tax freebies to get him to build his plant in their state. He makes a "green" car (if you ignore various environmental negatives of electric cars).

But if another CEO did that? Round up the ropes and lynching squads! They're just greedy bastards.
And that's why Wall Street PR can be such a lucrative business- those greedy b@stards
__________________

__________________
ERhoosier is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
That show on tv: "Hoarders" Orchidflower Other topics 42 11-10-2011 09:37 AM
William S. Burroughs, Cats and Kansas Purron Other topics 5 03-08-2011 06:24 PM
Sick and Dying Dogs and Cats TromboneAl Other topics 54 11-10-2007 04:25 PM
Oh yeah, the cats! HobbyDave Young Dreamers 16 03-28-2007 07:55 PM
Bats in the Belfry - Cats in the Car! BUM Life after FIRE 33 03-20-2006 06:54 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:57 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.