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Old 11-16-2012, 10:07 AM   #21
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Oh sure, you can spend that much if you pay for one of the first 1200 signature editions with all the possible options including the performance version.
I am guessing more people will be buying the 57k model.

It's kind of funny. I would never buy a luxury sedan like a BMW, Mercedes, etc. but the drive experience really won me over. If one of those guys would build an EV I would consider it now.
Even $57K is about twice the cost of the average new vehicle, and far more than the average price people pay for cars (new and used). For most people, it seems like a lot for an eco-chic (second car) commuter. Most people probably don't want to be restricted to a practical range of 100 miles (200 RT) without having to find and wait for recharging for a primary car. In that significant respect, the Model S is not a viable alternative to a 57K luxury ICE or hybrid...but we'll see where EV technology goes. Or if re-urbanization takes hold, who knows...
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:29 AM   #22
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Let's face it, the Tesla, along with the Volt and the Leaf are expensive toys. Even at $5 a gallon, the pay back is long, even longer if the Feds remove the the tax breaks. But.... what Tesla has done (IMHO) is advance the technology to the point where the Model S is a much more practical expensive toy than electric cars used to be. The shorter charging times is one example of that.

As I recall, the founder of the company said first they built a small number of extremely expensive vehicles, now they are building a larger number of higher cost vehicles, and next they want to be able to mass produce much cheaper vehicles. We will see.

We won't get innovation if somebody doesn't stick his neck out and risk getting his head chopped off.

The next great need: a competitive low-pollution source of electricity to power these vehicles.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:45 AM   #23
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But.... what Tesla has done (IMHO) is advance the technology to the point where the Model S is a much more practical expensive toy than electric cars used to be. The shorter charging times is one example of that. ...
I somewhat disagree on the charging time comment (unless I am misinformed on this - then please set me straight). I don't think Tesla made any great advance in charging times, that would have been done by the battery technology. This is the same technology that goes in laptops, cell phones, portable military gear, etc.

A small number of EVs are a drop in the bucket towards providing incentive to improve battery technology. There is plenty of motivation for that already.


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The next great need: a competitive low-pollution source of electricity to power these vehicles.
Maybe, maybe not. Any competitive low-pollution source of electricity should be used to offset whatever the highest source/use of pollution is. That might be replacing coal plants. If we add this new power source, and then use it for EVs, we didn't eliminate any coal burning. If we add this new power source, and don't have EVs, we can use it to reduce coal burning.

EVs may fit into that equation, but they need to be measured against all the options.

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Old 11-16-2012, 11:12 AM   #24
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Found an article on what happens if you let a Tesla battery go all the way dead. It must be replaced and it is not covered under warranty.


Could a bricked Tesla battery cost you $40,000? | ExtremeTech
Are you intentionally trying to mislead people?
Yes, you could drain the battery in a Tesla Roadster to the point of damaging it if you drained the battery 100% by letting it sit for months without charging.
The battery pack in the Tesla Model S is much more robust and will take much longer for that to happen, if ever.
And yes, I am sure if someone really tried hard they could damage the batteries. Likewise, I am sure if you really tried you could harm an ICE vehicle. Probably a lot easier actually.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:20 AM   #25
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Even $57K is about twice the cost of the average new vehicle, and far more than the average price people pay for cars (new and used). For most people, it seems like a lot for an eco-chic (second car) commuter. Most people probably don't want to be restricted to a practical range of 100 miles (200 RT) without having to find and wait for recharging for a primary car. In that significant respect, the Model S is not a viable alternative to a 57K luxury ICE or hybrid...but we'll see where EV technology goes. Or if re-urbanization takes hold, who knows...
Yes, it is priced much higher than the average car.
However, it is priced competitively with other luxury cars which is what it is shooting for.
For our family, it is our primary car. In the last 6 weeks about 85% of both m wife and my driving miles has been in the Model S. the most we have put on it in a single day has been about 130 miles (this is not in the base model). It very well could be our only car if push came to shove

I do agree though that electric cars in general don't work for everyone. I just think the number of people it does work for is enough to support a business plan.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:30 AM   #26
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From the Tesla website
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors

They confirm that the battery can be destroyed if left uncharged for a period of time. They don't say how long.

Tesla recommends plugging your Model S in each night or when convenient to maintain optimum driving range and battery health. If you go on an extended vacation, plug in your Model S and set it to “Storage Mode” before you leave.
If you leave your Tesla off charge for a significant period of time it will slowly lose its charge. If left at a 0% state of charge for period of time, you may need a battery replacement.
You do not need to run your battery to a 0% state of charge to maintain its health. This is an antiquated practice for a different kind of battery.


Found another article responding to the one about the batteries being bricked. Goes into detail about how the model S is protected from it. Looks like it would be difficult to cause it to happen unless you really worked at it. Many months setting as you said.


Tesla: You can't 'brick' Model S batteries | Cutting Edge - CNET News
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:31 AM   #27
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I somewhat disagree on the charging time comment (unless I am misinformed on this - then please set me straight)...
Tesla is setting up a supercharger network across the country. Currently there are 6 in California and the next one/couple are going up in the next month. I believe the next one/couple are set between NYC and Boston?

Superchargers will allow a 85kwh Model S to charge halfway in 30 minutes. I believe a full charge can be had in about 75 minutes.

Charging for us has basically become an overnight thing. We drive 50-150 miles each day and charge overnight. So charging infrastructure for our case really is unnecessary. I know that thee are people that frequently drive further. I also know there are other people that drive less.
How many there are of each will be a big factor.

Regarding the environment, take it completely out of the picture. I would own a Model S even with no consideration of the environment. It is amazing how phenomenal a car can be when not bogged down by an ICE.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:02 PM   #28
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Are you intentionally trying to mislead people?
Yes, you could drain the battery in a Tesla Roadster to the point of damaging it if you drained the battery 100% by letting it sit for months without charging. ...
If the quote from the article is correct (bold mine):

Quote:
But there’s also a warning that a car left to sit for more than two weeks should be plugged into Tesla’s $2,000 special charger. A car low on power could also be done in by a power cord that comes unplugged, a circuit breaker or ground fault interrupter that trips, or a long extension cord that can’t handle the current flow. It’s one more thing to worry about if you leave for an extended trip
These are edge cases, but not that uncommon, and I think a valid concern when $40,000 is at stake.

Drive to the airport, upon arrival battery is near empty, and you are going to be gone for a month. Ooops!

Spend a month at your vacation home away from the car - charger trips... Ooops!

If it is such a rare, rare occurrence, then Tesla should cover it (unless it was clear the owner just ignored any warnings to correct the situation and that it was under his control). Could he call Tesla, and say "Hey, I'm out of the country, can you go check the charger - I can't".

This isn't going to fly for the mass market. A kid goes away to school, the car sits for months. Instead of a jump, you have a major bill? It's not an insignificant problem.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:06 PM   #29
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Tesla is setting up a supercharger network across the country. Currently there are 6 in California and the next one/couple are going up in the next month. I believe the next one/couple are set between NYC and Boston?

Superchargers will allow a 85kwh Model S to charge halfway in 30 minutes. I believe a full charge can be had in about 75 minutes. ...
I wouldn't put that in the 'new technology' category that was pushed forward by EVs. It's an application of existing technology - just a big, fat power supply. My laptop, phone and other devices charge to 50% in 30 minutes - old hat. Just scale it up with a high power source.

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Old 11-16-2012, 12:24 PM   #30
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For our family, it is our primary car. In the last 6 weeks about 85% of both m wife and my driving miles has been in the Model S. the most we have put on it in a single day has been about 130 miles (this is not in the base model). It very well could be our only car if push came to shove
I would enjoy hearing more about your experiences with the Model S if you care to take to the time. What you like about it? What could be changed? How about the service? I hear you get a representative who works with the owner on service and any problems the owner may have. If so, what do you think of it?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:12 PM   #31
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If the quote from the article is correct (bold mine):



These are edge cases, but not that uncommon, and I think a valid concern when $40,000 is at stake.
Isn't the definition of an 'edge' case an uncommon one?

That said, you inferred conclusions from the article which are not accurate. I don't blame you for this as they are reasonable inferences from what and how they wrote their article. I place the blame with the article for misleading its readers.

First, the recommendation from Tesla is to always have the car plugged in when not in use. However, there is no need for a "special 2000 charger", which is good, as no such animal exists right now
You can plug into a standard 110 outlet, a standard 220volt outlet, J1772 public charger or a supercharger, or Tesla's $1200 home high capacity charger (220 volt 60-70amps I think). Adapters that come with the Model S are the J1772, NEMA 14-50 (pretty standard at RV parks and some truck stops), and standard 110 volt plugs. Others are available.

The Model S can last a year without power and be recharged. It is much more robust. So where the article starts out mentioning "Let your Tesla battery..." it really should be clear up front they are talking about the Roadster, not the Model S.

The article seems at least poorly written and at worst, very slanted anti-Tesla.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Drive to the airport, upon arrival battery is near empty, and you are going to be gone for a month. Ooops!
Not an issue for the Model S

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Spend a month at your vacation home away from the car - charger trips... Ooops!
Not an issue for the Model S nor the Roadster

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
If it is such a rare, rare occurrence, then Tesla should cover it (unless it was clear the owner just ignored any warnings to correct the situation and that it was under his control).
It was very clear in each of the 2 confirmed bricking issues of Roadsters (they never found the others). Once left the car unplugged and stored at a house under renovations, the other shipped it overseas, thought it couldn't be charged there, and shipped it back. Neither took steps to have the car trickle charged or charged in 'storage' mode. Both ignored the warnings and instructions in the owners manual and service statements to do so.

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Could he call Tesla, and say "Hey, I'm out of the country, can you go check the charger - I can't".
Not only can they, Tesla will automatically send you an email, text or phone call if your Roadster or Model S is approaching dangerous levels.
I believe this may not have been present on the first gen roadster, or may have been off by default and the owners never turned it on. But that is just a guess.

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This isn't going to fly for the mass market. A kid goes away to school, the car sits for months. Instead of a jump, you have a major bill? It's not an insignificant problem.

-ERD50
You are correct that if people get incorrect information from poorly written articles that will hurt mass market adoption. Tesla's job here is to do their best to get the correct information out there as well as make improvements when possible (as they did with the Model S battery system over the Roadster).
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #32
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Zathras, I admire your patience!
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #33
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There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. I honestly wouldn't buy an electric car for 15K. Too limited in range. I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.

I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:47 PM   #34
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I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.
Eh? Why do you doubt it? Most Prius batteries are still going strong, even 10 years in. Why would the Tesla battery die before 8?

Quote:
I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.
True enough. Of course, the feds subsidize large SUVs, too. How about we advocate getting rid of both instead of singling out one or the other?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:48 PM   #35
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I would enjoy hearing more about your experiences with the Model S if you care to take to the time. What you like about it? What could be changed? How about the service? I hear you get a representative who works with the owner on service and any problems the owner may have. If so, what do you think of it?
I would be happy to.
If the mods think this should go somewhere else please feel free to move it or let me know how to, but it does seem to be on topic

We are are two car household with an attached garage (insulated but not heated).
I LOVE how smooth, and quite the car is. The torque is instantly available and is very linear. It feels as it accelerates from 40-65 as quickly as it does from 0-25 or 15-40.
While performance isn't my primary concern, I do enjoy the performance the vehicle offers. 0-60 time is 5.6 seconds. Performance version is 4.4s.

The center of mass is incredibly low for a sedan. With the battery pack in a skateboard design along the bottom of the car, the handling is increadibly solid. I tried taking a cloverleaf at 40 and had no difficulty. The car stayed very solidly grounded. I could try faster but I don't think my nerves would take it

It is a hatchback design that seats 5+2 (2 optional rear facing jump seats appropriate for kids only). The spot in the middle of the back seat is acutally usable as there is no 'transmition tunnel' down the middle of the car. Floor is flat so you have more room.

Storage between the hatchback and the trunk under the front hood is about 30 cubic feet.

Interior is very clean in appearance. Modern/contemporary you might say. If you like lots of buttons, you won't like the Model S Steering wheel controls are available and can be modified in a limited way. Right steering wheel control dial can be set to control temperature, media source or one other item which I can't remember at the moment.

Things Tesla can improve on:

I would like to see them add an optional center console solution. My wife loves the large open area between the front seats. I like it, but would also like to see some 'covered' storage solution for iPods, spare change, etc. Using the open space is very convenient for my wife's large purse or my bookbag.
Better placed cupholders and cupholders for the back would be nice.
I have heard that Tesla is working on both of these options now, but I have yet to see them.

Controls for charging needs the capability to set a time to start (or end) the charge. This is very important for people that have time of use metering.

Adaptive cruise control would be nice. I don't care about this so much for myself. But it is something most all of their competition has and they are missing.

I wouldn't mind a smaller car, but that really isn't in the realm of things they could do differently with this model. It really becomes a new model. I am looking forward to their next generation sedan in 2-4 years which is supposed to be a smaller, more economical version.

Service:
Service is outstanding! This is based on my service experience with the Roadster in the last couple of years. The only 'service' experience with the Model S so far is when their delivery specialist came up to give us our introductory tour. He spent a couple hours with us showing us different aspects of the car, chatting about Tesla, Space X and going for a couple of test drives.
Service has always been friendly, extremely knowledgable, and prompt. For brake/alignment/wheel service I would take it to a local shop. For Tesla specific work (battery/drivetrain etc) one of the Tesla Rangers would come up from Chicago and do what work they needed to in my garage or driveway.

I have always called the service manager at the Chicago service center for any issues. All Model S deliveries have been given a Delivery Specialist to work with to arrange time and place of delivery (ours was delivered to our house, some people have them delivered to work). Some have picked up the car at the factory in California and gotten a factory tour. I know one couple that flew out to California to pick up their car at the factory and drove it back to Maine (it was a vacation trip, took 8-10 days I think, you certainly couldn't do it if you were in a rush).

If you have any questions feel free to ask. If you are in MN or western WisconsinI would be happy to give you a close up look
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #36
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There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. ...
Hmmm, has the mass morket adopted BMWs or the Mercedes E series? If your answer is no, then I would agree and state that the Model S never will either. Tesla is targetting about 20k per year. That very well may not be mass market. It is enough for them to make money on the Model S though.

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I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.
I do too!
I also object to many other subsidies/tax breaks. Including the SUV ones Erindus mentioned. And the gasoline subsidies/tax breaks and ethanol subsidies.

Because I disagree with them doesn't mean I am going to stop buying gasoline (I still buy a tiny amount for our second car), or an SUV if it is the best vehicle for my needs, nor an EV if it is the best vehicle for my needs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:58 PM   #37
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Zathras, I admire your patience!
Thank you Peter I have no problem with people that don't like the idea of EVs. I just want to make sure they have the correct information to base their opinion on.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:41 PM   #38
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Thanks for filling in some of the missing info in the article - it is shameful what passes for journalism these days.

Now, this will be a mess w/o the embedded quotes, but....

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Isn't the definition of an 'edge' case an uncommon one?
I said, not that uncommon. IOW, it isn't like the planets aligning while I stand on one foot and recite the alphabet backwards - we can envision these things happening to someone.


Quote:
First, the recommendation from Tesla is to always have the car plugged in when not in use. However, there is no need for a "special 2000 charger", which is good, as no such animal exists right now
You can plug into a standard 110 outlet, a standard 220volt outlet,
Right, it seemed odd to me that they called out a special charger - all that would be needed is a trickle, and any charger would do that. That still doesn't change it much - parking for an extended time (I didn't even think about shipping the car) means you need power available. That can be a problem.

While it sounds like they improved this on newer models, the question will be what about future, cheaper cars? Is there cost associated with a more robust battery?

I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion, but yes, I do think it is an issue for mass adoption. Cars do get left parked for extended periods, it happens for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes unplanned. Many urban types might not have power at their extended parking space. And it's not a small deal considering the cost of batteries.

FYI, I neither like nor dislike EVs (well, actually, I like the concept, the reality doesn't meet my needs at this time - mainly range and cost). I've discussed before not liking the subsidies and that I feel they are counter-productive, no reason to re-hash that. But we should get good info out there, and first on my list is that "zero pollution" association that EVs have.

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Old 11-16-2012, 02:59 PM   #39
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There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. I honestly wouldn't buy an electric car for 15K. Too limited in range. I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.
Do you happen to have even one credible link to back up any of those assertions?
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:19 PM   #40
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Eh? Why do you doubt it? Most Prius batteries are still going strong, even 10 years in. Why would the Tesla battery die before 8?



True enough. Of course, the feds subsidize large SUVs, too. How about we advocate getting rid of both instead of singling out one or the other?

What is this susidy of large SUVs you speak of And how much

But I agree that if there is one, I would want to get rid of it also.
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