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Old 06-06-2013, 09:53 AM   #161
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What you don't want to hear about how I smoked the Porsche next to me, and at the next light I asked the driver if he was trying and he said hell yes. Or how about when I was doing 110 and the cop lets me off with warning, after I let him drive it. (allegedly true stories from the Tesla forum). Or always being able to find a park spot because of the special EV charging stations. Or best of all the gas lines I didn't have to wait in.

I always make a point of dropping references to the going beach during winter, cause part of the fun of living in Hawaii is the gloating. So I am going to do the same with the Tesla for my EV skeptic friend ERD
Do you really have gas lines? Once in awhile I have to wait behind one car on a weekend at a grocery store that gives discounts to customers. That's a few minutes, max. Considering how long it takes to recharge an EV, if there aren't enough charging stations to meet demand, you are screwed if you ever have to wait like that.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:05 PM   #162
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What you don't want to hear about how I smoked the Porsche next to me, and at the next light I asked the driver if he was trying and he said hell yes. Or how about when I was doing 110 and the cop lets me off with warning, after I let him drive it. (allegedly true stories from the Tesla forum). Or always being able to find a park spot because of the special EV charging stations. Or best of all the gas lines I didn't have to wait in.

I always make a point of dropping references to the going beach during winter, cause part of the fun of living in Hawaii is the gloating. So I am going to do the same with the Tesla for my EV skeptic friend ERD
But I'm also a car guy at heart (not enough to open my wallet though). I have no problem with the Tesla owners driving it like a sports car - that's what it is. My problem is eco-claims that don't seem warranted.

The cop should be reprimanded (regardless of the propulsion system of the car) - he/she is not doing their job. And I'm also not a fan of any special provisions for EVs, because I don't think it's clear that the owners are actually doing anyone else any favors - they already got a subsidy, they don't pay road tax and they want more? If EVs are so great, why do they need all these other things too?

I found a long article picking apart the 'green' of EVs. The author is clearly biased, but most of his numbers appear to hold up, and they might tell an interesting tale after backing out some of his more questionable analysis. I hope to do a little more research, then I'll post if it looks worthwhile.

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Elon is one of the folks I follow on twitter.
I loved this tweet.

"No near term plans to IPO @SpaceX. Only possible in very long term when Mars Colonial Transporter is flying regularly."

Now next time somebody complains that all US corporations are just focused on hitting next quarters numbers. I'm going to point to SpaceX
But is that the case, or does he just think that this isn't the best time for an IPO? He's a bright guy, maybe he just figures that the IPO will do better after some added success stories. He's not hurting for money, id he - he can wait. Public companies are also open to more scrutiny - there was some discussion earlier that this might actually keep start-ups from going public, and limit opportunities for that public market in general.

[off-topic] As far as 'gloating' about the weather (you can keep it, if I liked HI overall, I'd move there), just remember that we don't 'gloat' when it is hurricane season or there is an approaching tsunami. Snow storms, ice storms and severe heat/cold result in deaths here - sorry to be such a downer, but gloating is just bad form and comes across as somewhat ignorant and arrogant, as it ignores that not everyone wants that kind of weather year round along with the other pros/cons of living on a remote island. We have brains, we can make those decisions for ourselves, and we do. I know, it's usually meant in a kidding fashion, but it gets old, and I've heard it my entire adult life. [off my soapbox, and apologies in advance if that was too rough, but it touched a nerve. That nerve has been building for ~ 40 years - you are just the lucky recipient of my wrath ]

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Old 06-06-2013, 05:19 PM   #163
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I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:52 PM   #164
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I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?
Zathras has one (two? or a Tesla and a Volt?). clifp has one on order. There may be more, but I don't think they've made it public.

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Old 06-06-2013, 10:39 PM   #165
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Do you really have gas lines? Once in awhile I have to wait behind one car on a weekend at a grocery store that gives discounts to customers. That's a few minutes, max. Considering how long it takes to recharge an EV, if there aren't enough charging stations to meet demand, you are screwed if you ever have to wait like that.
Well I pretty much only fill up at Costco, since it is both the cheapest place and some place that I pass by 3-4x a week. Typically there 2-3 cars ahead per lane, so I am pretty sure I average almost 10 minutes per trip. I don't drive much so I fill up 2x month. My guess is typical mainland driver fills up 3-4x month and is generally in an out of the gas station in 5 minutes, except for the time when you are running low on fuel and you have to go out of your way to find a service station. Anyway 20 minutes a month seems like a reasonable estimate for the amount of time people spend getting gas a month or 4 hours a year. Plus let's face it getting gas is a minor hassle.

If you never take long trips (like me cause I live on an island) than that is benefit for the EV owner. I may plug into the the charging stations just for grins but basically I'll always be charging at home. On other hand if you want to take a long trip 300-500 miles in a Tesla using the supercharging networking, you are going to spend 30 to 60 minutes extra because of slower speeds, more frequents stops, and longer stops.

If you make a couple long trips a year you'll save time with the Tesla, if you make a couple trips a month, it isn't the right car for you cause the irritation of waiting at supercharging (especially if they are filled) will outweigh the hassles of going to gas station.

On the other hand, the more or less maintenance free aspect of the car, couple with the downloading software fixes via the cloud is big benefit to me. As a single person taking my car to get it service waste nearly 1/2 day, since I end up taking the bus to retrieve it.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:32 AM   #166
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Perhaps an electric car owner can post the maintenance schedule for their car so we can get an idea of what is involved.

The other day I saw a Texas Tesla Ranger van cruising the local highways. They provide home service for these expensive cars. No sign of the Loan Ranger though.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:45 AM   #167
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but basically I'll always be charging at home.
Ah, that's the part I blanked out on. Makes perfect sense. For use a commuter car, all you have to do is remember to plug it in at home, so it's not gas station vs. charging station, it's gas station vs. none. Thanks.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:00 PM   #168
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Ah, that's the part I blanked out on. Makes perfect sense. For use a commuter car, all you have to do is remember to plug it in at home, so it's not gas station vs. charging station, it's gas station vs. none. Thanks.
Yep, it took me a while to realize that my gas station is at home. And maintenance, there just isn't much to do:

All-New Ford Focus Electric: The Most Maintenance-Free Ford Ever | Ford Motor Company Newsroom
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:25 PM   #169
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Perhaps an electric car owner can post the maintenance schedule for their car so we can get an idea of what is involved.

The other day I saw a Texas Tesla Ranger van cruising the local highways. They provide home service for these expensive cars. No sign of the Loan Ranger though.
Well in reading the manual. Tesla advises, rotating and replacing tires, replacing windshield wipers, filling up the windshield wiper fluid. Other than that nothing is required. In fact, Elon made a point of changing the warranty so if you never bring the car into a service center you are still covered for 8 years on battery 125,000 mile (unlimited for the 85KW battery)

No oil to change, no timing to worry about. In fact really don't even need to change brake pads, since almost all of the braking is regenerative, other than slamming on the brakes the pads don't get used.

Of course this is all in theory we will see in practice.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:07 AM   #170
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I really wish I could afford the Tesla. I've heard a lot of good things about it, but I really just love the way it looks and sounds. I don't travel long distances so I think it would work out well for my needs. Has anyone actually purchased this beauty?
Yes, we just replaced our Volt with a second Tesla. So we have one that is the 85kWh model and one that is the 60kWh model.

@Chuckanut, scheduled service is basically every 12,500 ,miles.
They check the lubrication for for one moving part in the motor (ball bearing), and a bunch of mundane things (alignment, tire wear, etc).

We have 11,500 on our first and are looking forward seeing what the 12,500 service is like.
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:59 PM   #171
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Zathras did you purchase the service plan?
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:10 PM   #172
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Zathras did you purchase the service plan?
Yes, 20% off and free replacement of almost any parts made it an easy decision.

I did the four year prepaid plan, not the extra 4 years, nor the extended warrantee.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:49 AM   #173
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I saw a special on the S version Tesla. It said the battery alone costs $30k and that the company will be challenged to get the price below $50k. I think after the large government rebate of $7500 the car is now still 70,000.

Also Tesla has large loans from the U.S. government that are dragging them down .

Seems pricey with little net environmental benefit.
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Old 06-09-2013, 05:55 AM   #174
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I saw a special on the S version Tesla. It said the battery alone costs $30k and that the company will be challenged to get the price below $50k.
Speculation. Possible, but a guess on the part of whoever produced the special.

What we know for a fact is that Tesla is selling battery replacements for people that are concerned about the battery packs.
You can buy a pack for $10,000 or $12,000 for a battery pack in 8 years.

The base Model S was originally $57,400. After rebate, that was $49,900.
Only a few were ordered so they discontinued that model.

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I think after the large government rebate of $7500 the car is now still 70,000.
The current base model is $62,400 after the rebate.

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Also Tesla has large loans from the U.S. government that are dragging them down .
I know of many companies, especially start up companies that have government loans.
In Tesla's case they had a 465 million dollar loan which they paid back a week or two ago.

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Seems pricey with little net environmental benefit.
No doubt, it is very pricey as are other luxury cars.
Many people buying it could care less about the environmental benefits.
The are buying it for the performance, or the technology, or the quality of the drive experience.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #175
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..........
No doubt, it is very pricey as are other luxury cars.
Many people buying it could care less about the environmental benefits.
The are buying it for the performance, or the technology, or the quality of the drive experience.

You don't understand. If you buy an electric or hybrid car, you are obligated to justify it to the naysayers. Buy an F350 to commute to work and you are cool. Buy a Tesla and you are not saving enough energy to justify the batteries' negative environmental effects.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:31 AM   #176
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You don't understand. If you buy an electric or hybrid car, you are obligated to justify it to the naysayers. Buy an F350 to commute to work and you are cool. Buy a Tesla and you are not saving enough energy to justify the batteries' negative environmental effects.
Where does this come from?

I can only speak for myself, but I think I've been clear that I'm not asking anyone to justify their purchase. I actually think it's pretty cool that they can drive a luxury car like this, low end torque of an electric motor is what high performance drivers dream about! I've only been questioning the statements that EVs offer some very significant enviro-benefit, even before taking the battery construction into account. If a poster is going to claim something is eco-friendly, it isn't unreasonable to question or ask for justification of that statement, is it? Just like we do when someone says X is a good investment strategy?

And who says that F350 drivers are 'cool'? Your injections of red herrings speaks volumes.

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Many people buying it could care less about the environmental benefits.
The are buying it for the performance, or the technology, or the quality of the drive experience.
edit/add: the expression is "couldn't care less", but assuming that is what you meant...

I'm sure that's true for some, esp for the Roadster, which had great performance for the $, if performance is what you are after. But I wonder just how 'many' would actually be totally neutral about the enviro-benefits, or if someone mentioned the enviro-benefits to them, would say, 'no, I bought it for other factors, I don't know if it's enviro-good or not, and I don't care'. I think that would be very few, but I'm sure there is no way to know. It would be interesting to find a survey of owners (the only one I found on a quick google that was close lumped 'technology' with environment).

Regardless, some people on this forum are saying that EVs are enviro-friendly, and good for the country, so we are having a discussion about that. If I met an individual Tesla owner who said enviro-benefits were not even their radar screen, I wouldn't talk to him/her about that.


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What we know for a fact is that Tesla is selling battery replacements for people that are concerned about the battery packs.
You can buy a pack for $10,000 or $12,000 for a battery pack in 8 years.
$12,000 today for a battery pack in 8 years doesn't tell us too much about the cost of a battery pack today. What is $12,000 in up-front cash worth to Tesla today? How much do they anticipate battery prices to drop in 8 years? How much of the $12,000 represents a price they are willing to pay to offset some buyer uncertainty over battery pack replacement? And then there is the possibility (slight perhaps, but you sure can't ignore it) that Tesla won't be around in 8 years to make good on the offer.

Simple math says $12,000 today is worth $15,000 in 8 years if the cost of that money is 3%. If battery prices drop at 5%/year real, that's another 1.5x factor, so today's pack looks like ~ $22K - very roughly? And some small % will probably not be in service (totaled), and I suppose if you hit year 8, and the pack is in good shape, you would wait to replace it (I would, assuming it's not a one-time use-it-or-loose-it deal)?

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Old 06-10-2013, 01:07 AM   #177
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I believe the special I referred to was either Cnetv or CNBC. They interviewed someone in the industry and tested the vehicle. No need for anyone to justify the purchase of a $70k car, they were talking about the health of the company and if they can sell enough product in that niche market.

As far as the environmental considerations, as long as someone doesn't claim the vehicle is 'saving the planet' no problem. Many Prius buyers mistakenly had that idea - just not true.

As far as government funding, lets not forget that no other luxury sedan gets a $7500 tax credit. Even though Tesla may have paid off their loan, every sale continues to be government subsidized in this way.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:25 AM   #178
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As far as government funding, lets not forget that no other luxury sedan gets a $7500 tax credit. Even though Tesla may have paid off their loan, every sale continues to be government subsidized in this way.
Actually every EV gets $7500 not just Tesla, that includes GM, Ford, Nissan EVs to name a few, most of these are in the 40K range which generally qualifies as luxury brand. Not mention the taxpayers are still paying for the Fiat and GM bailouts.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:01 AM   #179
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...

As far as government funding, lets not forget that no other luxury sedan gets a $7500 tax credit. Even though Tesla may have paid off their loan, every sale continues to be government subsidized in this way.
As noted, all EVs get a tax credit.
Millions of SUVs (many of them luxury SUVs) got special tax treatment when used for business.
Gasoline/oil is subsidized by our government. While I am not one to claim the only reason our military is in the Middle East, it does playa role. In some cases a very significant role.
Over the lifetime of the EV credit, each model vehicle will receive government tax credits of 1.5 Billion. That is, if the sell 200,000 vehicles.

Estimates I have seen on the expenditures by our government for oil is about 10 Billion every year ( the higher range of the estimates go much higher than that).

References: http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html
http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/ (primary)


Another way to think about it is that approximately 1.3 Million EVs would need to be sold to be equal to government expenditures for one year of government oil subsidies.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:20 AM   #180
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ERD, I am looking for more data on the environmental front.
If you have any, I would appreciate it.
Here is an article I found on the solar panel manufacturing pollution you previously referred to.
Solar Companies Creating Millions Of Pounds Of Polluted Sludge, Contaminated Water CBS DC

The statement near the end of the article is what it comes down to for me.
Quote:
The roughly 20-year life of a solar panel still makes it some of the cleanest energy technology currently available. Producing solar is still significantly cleaner than fossil fuels. Energy derived from natural gas and coal-fired power plants, for example, creates more than 10 times more hazardous waste than the same energy created by a solar panel, according to Mulvaney.
I still feel solar is better than coal, oil or natural gas"
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