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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 05:04 PM   #61
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Re: More political ranting

I can see this argument is the same circular argument that has taken place numerous times on this forum. So to avoid a similar result as the weight loss thread, I am excusing myself from this debate. You continue believing what you want, no matter how wrong it is, and I'll continue to remember the facts as presented and debated in the UN before the war.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 05:10 PM   #62
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipper
Face the facts.

The "Crawford Chimp" should have kept his eye on Afghanistan and killed or captured Osama.

Instead, he thought he knew better, and like the "Gulf of Tonkin", trumped up WMD and punched the "tarbaby".

You had the world on your side after 9-11 and you totally f*cked it up with Iraq.

You suckered the UK and Australia.

Your best friends, the Canadians said don't do it. The Europeans and 90% of the world knew WMD was a crock.

maximillion?
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 05:18 PM   #63
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipper
Face the facts.

The "Crawford Chimp" should have kept his eye on Afghanistan and killed or captured Osama.

Instead, he thought he knew better, and like the "Gulf of Tonkin", trumped up WMD and punched the "tarbaby".

You had the world on your side after 9-11 and you totally f*cked it up with Iraq.

You suckered the UK and Australia.

Your best friends, the Canadians said don't do it. The Europeans and 90% of the world knew WMD was a crock.

Well . . . yeah. That's a nice way to summarize.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 05:42 PM   #64
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Well . . . yeah. That's a nice way to summarize.
That is why the entire american public needs to vote out the republicans! $hit they never should have re elected the moron, but america will get what it deserves if these idiots re elect these darn losers.

Damn it where is bin laden?! Huh? Republican Hannity Limbaugh lovers, your guy is an Darn failure!
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 06:07 PM   #65
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by newguy888
That is why the entire american public needs to vote out the republicans! $hit they never should have re elected the moron, but america will get what it deserves if these idiots re elect these darn losers.

Damn it where is bin laden?! Huh? Republican Hannity Limbaugh lovers, your guy is an Darn failure!
You're quite the hawk for a liberal newguy888! Don't you think there's more to be gained by peaceful negotiation?
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 06:47 PM   #66
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by astromeria
Alas, many of those tortured or disappeared by our own gov't were/are not "Muslim extremists"--just Muslims in the wrong place at the worng time, with the wrong address, friends, relatives, acquaintences, or even name. This is why we have the American system of justice--so the gov't can't do things like this to human beings. arrrgh!
Sorry, our laws apply only to Americans. If you want hang out, communicate with, support, fund or whatever with Muslim Terrorists I hope you do get tortured.


GWB has a lot to learn from Putin if he wants to seriously fight terrorism.


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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 07:19 PM   #67
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Re: More political ranting

Must be almost election time.

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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 07:33 PM   #68
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Re: More political ranting

You know what really is crazy I do not care one bit what we do to a terrorist.

They have lost all human rights when they decided to kill innocent humans for the sake of the islamic jihad.

Sorrry this liberal wants the likes of bin laden killed.

Iraq, wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 07:33 PM   #69
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Re: More political ranting

Yawn

Yep - I don't even know all the Democrats in Missouri but I'll vote for them anywise.

Heck - if I could figure out how and if he could run from inside the Federal Pen - I'd vote a St Bernard headstone for Edwin - but alas Katrina put ka-bosch on that idea.

As long as they're still breathing and Democrats - I'll vote for 'em.

heh heh heh heh heh - when I get my curmudgeon certificate - I'll vote for none.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-27-2006, 10:16 PM   #70
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by saluki9
Sorry, our laws apply only to Americans. If you want hang out, communicate with, support, fund or whatever with Muslim Terrorists I hope you do get tortured.
This is extremely rude and I hope you modify your statement yourself, saluki--and you're wrong besides. There have been many utterly innocent people released from Guantanamo and other facilities (after months or years--and only after public and Red Cross protest), and our gov't has admitted as much. Not to mention that our torturing puts all Americans at risk--including Americans like my daughter who are trying to improve democracy in a peaceful manner on their own in difficult places.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 12:08 AM   #71
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
Yawn

Yep - I don't even know all the Democrats in Missouri but I'll vote for them anywise.

Heck - if I could figure out how and if he could run from inside the Federal Pen - I'd vote a St Bernard headstone for Edwin - but alas Katrina put ka-bosch on that idea.

As long as they're still breathing and Democrats - I'll vote for 'em.

heh heh heh heh heh - when I get my curmudgeon certificate - I'll vote for none.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 06:03 AM   #72
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
Yawn

Yep - I don't even know all the Democrats in Missouri but I'll vote for them anywise.

Heck - if I could figure out how and if he could run from inside the Federal Pen - I'd vote a St Bernard headstone for Edwin - but alas Katrina put ka-bosch on that idea.

As long as they're still breathing and Democrats - I'll vote for 'em.

heh heh heh heh heh - when I get my curmudgeon certificate - I'll vote for none.

Do you chase the neighborhood kids away from the front of your house when they are playing football or baseball on the street there??

Man you need some alcohol or a new younger lady.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 06:42 AM   #73
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
Yipeee!!

Thanks sqeeee.

heh heh heh heh heh
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 09:24 AM   #74
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Re: More political ranting

This debate seems to be deteriorating the closer we get to the election.

For those who are so convinced GWB is an idiot, and only Republicans / so-called conservatives lie ... watch a few more years, and you'll see many Democrats as well as Republicans lie whenever it suits them, and personal attacks are simply political tools. e.g. Clinton didn't come out looking too bright either when you really think about it. 'Course, it's easy for all of us to critique Clinton, Bush, etc., since we really never had to walk in their shoes.


For those exercised about water-boarding, I'll tell you this ... it is easy to rant about such interrogation techniques in a vacuum, and from the comfort of your warm, cozy room, and liberal and pseudo-intellectual keyboard. Easy.

However, if you ... YOU ... were in charge of the security of a city, much less a country, and had in your custody a foreign national you believed, honestly believed, had knowledge of a major, upcoming terrorist plot that could kill thousands, what would you do? If that were truly the situation, I wouldn't hesitate on water-boarding for an instant, and I would surely go much further if that is what it took to take down an enemy and save thousands of innocent lives.

Some of you ... a small group of you ... frankly shock me with your naiveté, and I am thankful you were not responsible for U.S. security in the past. You are incredibly optimistic about human behavior, and ignorant of the raw facts of history.

If this so-called war on terror (and no, please ... not the war in Iraq ...) continues to deteriorate, as I believe it will, we'll see attacks here in the U.S. Then the pseudo-intellectuals will tell us it is our fault ... but if and when that happens, the silly debate will change.

But, this is all like BS conversation at a bar isn't it? No sweat. Just BS right now.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 09:53 AM   #75
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by astromeria
Not to mention that our torturing puts all Americans at risk--including Americans like my daughter who are trying to improve democracy in a peaceful manner on their own in difficult places.
This argument is a canard in that it assumes our adversaries have reservations about utilizing torture to the fullest extent possible. They don't. In the event you haven't noticed the internet videos of beheadings or read stories about tortured and mutilated bodies dumped in mass graves or booby-trapped and left for rescue workers to find, our adversaries are well versed in using torture. But they don't use it to extract information, or at least not exclusively. They use it as a weapon. They use it to frighten and control. In short, they use it to terrorize. Don't think for a moment that this will change in the slightest even if we limit our interrogations to the "name, rank, and serial number" questions allowed under the Geneva Convention.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 10:51 AM   #76
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Re: More political ranting

This is the problem I see with this war on terror.

9/11 and Bin laden is still alive , the scum that attacked us are still free. The egyption Al Zwahiri who bin laden FOLLOWS yes Al zwahiri IS the Brains so to speack of the sick Jihad and that guy is also still alive MAKING VIDEOS!

So GW who before 9/11 was going to be a one term prez, sorry the guy had shown very little leadership IN MY EYES, has the world behind him on 9/11, even the Iranians were speaking.

Fast forward, and all of the sudden Saddam is back on the table.

Most Liberals that I know not the Jack@sses in Hollywood or the Media wanted and still want WHOEVER is in charge to Find and Kill the scum, yes I don't care if we find a terrorist and sit him in a room and cut off a toe and finger at a time to save the planet from another attack. PERIOD, But FIGHT THE RIGHT WAR, and Iraq was NOT the place.

And now that we are there sorry again but 200,000+ more troops a draft here in america and now let the army DO THE JOB RIGHT, it will mean devistation like we still have not seen to kill all those bad guys no?
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 11:01 AM   #77
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
This debate seems to be deteriorating the closer we get to the election.
Yeah.




Quote:
However, if you ... YOU ... were in charge of the security of a city, much less a country, and had in your custody a foreign national you believed, honestly believed, had knowledge of a major, upcoming terrorist plot that could kill thousands, what would you do? If that were truly the situation, I wouldn't hesitate on water-boarding for an instant, and I would surely go much further if that is what it took to take down an enemy and save thousands of innocent lives.
I have heard this argument before in support of "agressive" interrogation or torture. The problem with this argument is (1)it is completely hypothetical; we never have the person in custody that we know has information about an iminent threat where thousands of lives could be saved if we only could get information from that person; (2) Torture does not reveal reliable results; (3) a hypothetical situation that has not occured is not a good argument for torture or agressive interrogation in other circumstances.


Me, I think we should spend our efforts on better ways to get intelligence about terrorist groups.




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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 11:02 AM   #78
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
In science and engineering we used to say, "All models are wrong . . . it's just a matter of degree. And all measurements are wrong because they all depend on models."

But there can, and often is, a big difference in the degree.
sgeeeee: So, please tell me if I'm interpreting things correctly. Looking at Rush Limbaugh as an example: If he is wrong in all his opinions and facts, he would be 180 degrees off from the truth. If he was self-aware of this, he would be 360 degrees off. If he was expressing his opinions, aware that they are opinions that are not truthful, but did it anyway to keep making money, then he would be 360+180=540 degrees off. So does this make sense? Or is my head just spinning?
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 11:08 AM   #79
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
This debate seems to be deteriorating the closer we get to the election.

For those who are so convinced GWB is an idiot, and only Republicans / so-called conservatives lie ... watch a few more years, and you'll see many Democrats as well as Republicans lie whenever it suits them, and personal attacks are simply political tools. e.g. Clinton didn't come out looking too bright either when you really think about it. 'Course, it's easy for all of us to critique Clinton, Bush, etc., since we really never had to walk in their shoes.


For those exercised about water-boarding, I'll tell you this ... it is easy to rant about such interrogation techniques in a vacuum, and from the comfort of your warm, cozy room, and liberal and pseudo-intellectual keyboard. Easy.

However, if you ... YOU ... were in charge of the security of a city, much less a country, and had in your custody a foreign national you believed, honestly believed, had knowledge of a major, upcoming terrorist plot that could kill thousands, what would you do? If that were truly the situation, I wouldn't hesitate on water-boarding for an instant, and I would surely go much further if that is what it took to take down an enemy and save thousands of innocent lives.

Some of you ... a small group of you ... frankly shock me with your naiveté, and I am thankful you were not responsible for U.S. security in the past. You are incredibly optimistic about human behavior, and ignorant of the raw facts of history.


John McCain spent 5 years in a North Viet. POW camp, he knows torture first hand and came out against this. I don't think he's naive, nor does he have a liberal keyboard (do you pick that up at the Ted Kennedy computer store?). He and experts have stated that torture does NOT produce reliable data. I bet they could get you to admit to a bomb plot if they tortured you enough! Certainly not worth trashing the ideals of our country and further endangering U.S. troops. As far as people beating their chest in pseudo-intellectual bravado about this, count the scoreboard on how many people in this administration served overseas to protect this country, and how many found a way to squirrel out of putting their money where their mouth is (national guard, 9 defferments, etc.).

So keep shaking that spector of fearmongering at us, scare those people into voting, sure.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 12:41 PM   #80
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by Martha
I have heard this argument before in support of "agressive" interrogation or torture. The problem with this argument is (1)it is completely hypothetical; we never have the person in custody that we know has information about an iminent threat where thousands of lives could be saved if we only could get information from that person; (2) Torture does not reveal reliable results; (3) a hypothetical situation that has not occured is not a good argument for torture or agressive interrogation in other circumstances.


On the 18 November 2005, Brian Ross and Richard Esposito described the CIA's "waterboarding" technique as follows in an article posted on the ABC News web site:

"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess. 'The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law,' said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch."



And then in a report by Time Magazine . . .


Captured al-Qaeda planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has given U.S. interrogators the names and descriptions of about a dozen key al-Qaeda operatives believed to be plotting terrorist attacks on American and other Western interests, according to federal officials. Other high-level al-Qaeda detainees previously disclosed some of the names, but Mohammed, until recently al-Qaeda's chief operating officer and the brains behind the 9/11 attacks, has volunteered new ones. He has also added crucial details to the descriptions of other suspects and filled in important gaps in what U.S. intelligence knows about al-Qaeda's practices.


Oh, in case you missed it in the first quote "CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique . . . "

Can we please get real about the things we choose to call torture?
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