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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 02:11 PM   #81
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
They use it to frighten and control. In short, they use it to terrorize.
3 Yrs to Go.. I'm confused as to where you are coming from. We want to copy them, why, exactly?

Is it, or is it not, disingenuous to describe waterboarding as "a dunk in water"? (A dunk sounds kinda nice, like Dunkin' Donuts...)

What CIA trainees undergo, as a means to make them comprehend what torture is and how to potentially withstand it, is beside the point. If CIA agents had bamboo shoots driven under their fingernails, would that, then, somehow logically escape the realm of torture?

I may well be na´ve in thinking that the ends do not justify the means, and that our enemy using torture, as you say, solely to control and terrorize, is all the more reason for us to avoid that route. The US used to stand for something different; when we legalize and canonize the sins of our worst enemies, what does that say about us as a nation?

What's most shocking to me is what I hear coming from supposedly "Christian" factions: one theo-con said he was disappointed and embarrassed at the pope's anti-war statements!
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/43576/

WWJD, indeed?

If you read the link I posted previously, you will notice that torture, (or humiliation, or maltreatment) WEAKENS our case, even against individuals who may be guilty of terrorist acts or complicity therein.

Quote:
John McCain spent 5 years in a North Viet. POW camp, he knows torture first hand and came out against this. I don't think he's naive, nor does he have a liberal keyboard (do you pick that up at the Ted Kennedy computer store?). He and experts have stated that torture does NOT produce reliable data. I bet they could get you to admit to a bomb plot if they tortured you enough! Certainly not worth trashing the ideals of our country and further endangering U.S. troops. As far as people beating their chest in pseudo-intellectual bravado about this, count the scoreboard on how many people in this administration served overseas to protect this country, and how many found a way to squirrel out of putting their money where their mouth is (national guard, 9 defferments, etc.).
Laurence, I agree completely. The Fighting Keyboardists can proclaim and pronounce all they want from the comfort of their desk chairs. The vast majority of both politicians and pundits who HAVE actually served in the miltary have a much different view from the politicians and pundits who HAVEN'T, Bush & Cheney foremost among them. And it makes me ashamed how much sh*t vets are getting from the Republicans.. Anyone out there a Republican who is p.o.'d at how our vets like Kerry, Murtha, Jim Webb, McCain, Max Cleland, Paul Hackett, Patrick Murphy, Joe Sestak, etc., etc., are actually treated by the GOP?

Quote:
Bryan Lentz, 41, an attorney from Swarthmore, Pa., volunteered to go to Iraq at age 39 with a civil affairs unit. The Army reserves major was so disillusioned by the lack of a plan in Iraq that he decided while he was in Iraq to run for Congress.

He is trying to unseat 10-term GOP Rep. Curt Weldon [N.B., never served], who is vice chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

"I'm not anti-war, I'm anti-failure," Lentz said. "We need to define what victory is and we need to set a plan to get there. You cannot stay the course if you do not set a course."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1004-02.htm
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 02:14 PM   #82
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Re: More political ranting

Weldon should be removed by the people on election day, he is a failure 20 years in congress.

Term limits anyone??

remember he was in office ON 9/11, uh time to go now.

People of PA in that district do what you must do, vote him out.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 03:15 PM   #83
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
3 Yrs to Go.. I'm confused as to where you are coming from. We want to copy them, why, exactly?

Is it, or is it not, disingenuous to describe waterboarding as "a dunk in water"? (A dunk sounds kinda nice, like Dunkin' Donuts...)

What CIA trainees undergo, as a means to make them comprehend what torture is and how to potentially withstand it, is beside the point. If CIA agents had bamboo shoots driven under their fingernails, would that, then, somehow logically escape the realm of torture?

I may well be na´ve in thinking that the ends do not justify the means, and that our enemy using torture, as you say, solely to control and terrorize, is all the more reason for us to avoid that route. The US used to stand for something different; when we legalize and canonize the sins of our worst enemies, what does that say about us as a nation?
A few thoughts.

1) The broad, generalized, use of the word "torture" renders just about any intelligent discussion basically moot. When you ask "We want to copy them, why, exactly?" you are, by inference, equating water boarding and sleep deprivation with slow beheadings and mutilations. Most reasonable people would see a clear distinctions between these two categories. Lumping nearly every form of interrogation under the broad definition of "torture" is not generally helpful unless your only objective is to criticize a political opponent.

2) My point in this post was only to point out the false cause and effect premise of the argument that "aggressive interrogation techniques" put our soldiers at risk. The basic idea that if we don't do it to them they won't do it to us is patently false. My point was that they do it to us in order to terrorize. That will not change, regardless of how we act. But once again, we are equating water boarding to mutilation and murder.

3) You're ignoring the fact that there is a reason the CIA does not put bamboo shoots under its trainee's fingernails. That is because it is not the same thing as water boarding. The CIA also does not behead its trainees . . . what this fact says about the appropriateness of water boarding or other less intensive techniques I have no idea. But generally speaking, I'd say that things "CIA agents subjected themselves to" probably ought not be considered torture. By extention, I could see submitting myself to water boarding as described here if I were a covert agent. I don't really feel the same about the bamboo thing.

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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 03:42 PM   #84
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3 Yrs to Go
I could see submitting myself to water boarding as described here if I were a covert agent.
Water-boarding quality tester: a clear front-runner for "World's Worst Job".
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 05:26 PM   #85
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Re: More political ranting

3 Years to Go ... thanks for the logic.

Nords ... thanks for the laugh.



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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 06:42 PM   #86
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Re: More political ranting

Just to torture this horse a bit more before he dies . . .

This is the original ABC article indirectly referenced by me above. The article is titled "CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described. Sources say Agency's Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes Death*"

One can gather from the headline that this is not an article that paints the administration's policies in a very favorable light. Nonetheless, halfway through the article they disclose the horrific details of just what our CIA is up to . . .

Quote:
According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.


An "Attention Grab?" A "Belly Slap?" A "Cold Cell?" You're kidding me right? This is what everyone has gotten themselves twisted around the axel about? This is the "TORTURE" that everyone is screaming about? I understand that some people have worked themselves into a blinding hatred for Bush and anything associated with him, but this is a joke . . . right? You're saying that we can't subject Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of September 11 (as well as Daniel Pearl's murder, the Bali bombings, the first WTC bombing, etc., etc.), to a belly slap to try and find out what, and who, he knows??

People need to stop throwing around the "Torture" moniker and get serious. This is not "bamboo under the finger nails" let alone genital mutilation. Everyone who is complaining about "torture" should be prepared to answer how far beyond "asking nicely" they think our government should be allowed to go.



* A foot note in small print says "Enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets -- Khalid Sheik Mohammed among them. According to the sources, all of these have confessed , none of them has died , and all of them remain incarcerated."

I'd consider it strange to say in the headline "Sometimes Death" and then disclose in small print that nobody, in fact, has died, if I didn't already know better.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 07:22 PM   #87
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Re: More political ranting

When a Democrat takes office the same people will defend him / her as they follow similar policies. Just give it a few years.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 07:56 PM   #88
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Re: More political ranting

3YTG,
Thanks for the sanity check.
Should we review the bidding on just what type of characters we are talking about here? They and their buddies are not legal combatants.
Personally, I'm not sure which is funnier, the "it doesn't work" arguement or the "they'll treat us bad if we treat them bad" concept. Apparently us "treating them bad" is making them stay awake for a long time. Them "treating us bad" is decapitaton. But, to some people it is all the same--TORTURE.

I'm very sorry our (reported) interrogation techniques have been made public-it is a terrible disservice to the nation. Not because it makes us look bad, they don't (I think no other nation, facing what we are facing, would be this humane). The shame is that this talk tells the bad guys just what to expect--and that it's not really that bad. I want them to think they are going to die--not that they might get a bad head cold.

Many of these animals come from countries with far more rigorous interrogation techniques ("they don't work" hee-hee). Now there are restrictions concernng sending them home if the treatment might be too severe.

Yep--we're reallly serious about this war on terror. Civil liberties are being trashed left and right.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-28-2006, 11:10 PM   #89
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by disEntropy Greg
sgeeeee: So, please tell me if I'm interpreting things correctly.. .
No, you're not.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 06:32 AM   #90
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Re: More political ranting

Continuing the tortured thread ...

Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Jan11.html
"Liberals," argued an article in the liberal online magazine Slate a few months ago, "have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, the argument that torture is ineffective." But it's also true that "realists," whether liberal or conservative, have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, fictitious accounts of effective torture carried out by someone else.
How true.

To Martha's statements above: "... Torture does not reveal reliable results ..." and "... it is completely hypothetical ..." ... well, these statements are subject to a great deal of debate, with a subset of that debate being the question of what is torture of course.

Those who believe all of this is only hypothetical can take their own time to honestly research the history and efficacy of interrogation, and interrogation techniques. The blog entry below was interesting, though obviously not "proof".

Quote:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thede..._the_bigg.html

Posted by: Roger Dier | November 15, 2005 07:44 PM

From Errin - "Does anybody out there know an actual, real life occurence where there was a ticking time bomb (or similar situation) AND somebody was tortured AND that torture lead to an avoidance of the time bomb going off?"

In the fall of 1994, the Filipino authorities arrested an Arab in Manila after a fire started in his bomb factory. His boss, a man named Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, barely got away. Police found enough chemicals to construct 25-30 powerful bombs and maps of Pope John PaulII's motorcade route for his Jan 15th visit.

Over the next 2 months, Abdul Hakim Murad stayed true to Allah and mostly resisted - taunting the infidels he would kill thousands of them or his brothers would. He went through beatings that broke all his ribs, rubber hoses, cigarettes stubbed out in his ears. He finally broke when he was kept up for several days and continually slapped to keep him awake. He was also threatened to be given to the Jews. It was Jan 6th, 1995. Murad then freely talked over a day or so -and revealed his boss, KSM, his computer diskettes on bombmaking and airline security weak points still hidden in another safehouse, his Muslim confederates in Manila and in 3 other airports - and revealed links to the 1993 WTC bombers and the assassins of Meir Kahane in NYC. Until that point, NYC thought the WTC bombing was home-grown, but Ramzi Yousef was also involved in the Manila activities.

The main goal of the Bojinka Project was the mid-air bombing and destruction of 11 large body airliners over the mid-Pacific, hopefully killing 4,200-5,000 infidels, using bombs Murad was supposed to make and timers KSM would procure. That was supposed to happen on Jan 11, 12th 1995. The Pope was supposed to be killed on Jan 15th by one of three massive car bombs laid on his route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Bojinka#Manhunt

When Khalid Sheik Mohammed was caught, we got the man responsible for thinking up and implementing the Bojinka Project, the embassy bombings, Jew bombings in Tunisia, the assassination of US diplomats in Jordan and Pakistan, the beheading of the Jew, Daniel Pearle....and his "Masterpiece" achievement, the concept, planning, and operational control of the 9/11 Project. We also tried the carrot approach with KSM for months and got nowhere until the CIA was authorized to go hardass - thus we stopped his Singapore Project (simultaneous bombings of US naval vessels, Singaporean port facilities, and 3 crowded Singapore shopping malls), a plot involving 6 airline planes crashing on the US West Coast, and his Heathrow airport plan that involved both native Pakis and Brit-born ones. The Singapore Project was about a month away from implementation when the CIA's techniques finally got KSM singing, according to the Singapore state security ministry, which arrested 21 and beat their roles and assignments out of them, and got them to finger their financiers in the UAE.

KSM and Binalshibh, Atta's roommate, have been induced to sing well, and we know their coerced info in truthful and not lies because it cross-checks with what each other said and with the people they snitched out, helping roll up almost 100 additional Al Qaeda, who are also being "convinced" to ID more in the network.

BTW, the intel provided by the duressed, poor KSM and Binalshibh has been credible enough to Senate Intelligence Committee 9/11 investigators and the 9/11 Commission in establishing what happened and how the plot progressed to success, and who did what on the Jihadi side that what the two said runs through both reports.

What I would really like to see is the Vietnamese Gov't authorize publication on how effective their torture of POWs was. And the US to say how well they did in getting NVA and VC to squeal. Vietnam was the last war in which both sides did a lot of dark stuff.

Going forward, I hope DARPA and DOD contracts are going out to projects to improve on the 50 year old lie detection technology. We are learning that lying causes involuntary minor eye movements all or part of the time. That the brain uses more energy to tell a lie than to tell the truth, and this shows up on prototype scanners. But I suspect that anything past the 5th will cause "toooooortuuuure!!!' claims regardless of what we do, because the Left wants Bush to go down more than they want the radical Islamists to fall.
I think most people don't have a challenge with accepting the concept that intelligence, sometimes yielded by coercive techniques, has led to lives saved. Doesn't take much work to begin finding that evidence, though perhaps a military vet or lurking "spook" will speak up and provide more examples.

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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 06:48 AM   #91
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
How true.

To Martha's statements above: "... Torture does not reveal reliable results ..

This debate feels like torture to me. Just tell me what you want to learn.
You know I have the answers.

JG
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 12:15 PM   #92
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
This debate feels like torture to me. Just tell me what you want to learn.
You know I have the answers.

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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 01:04 PM   #93
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Re: More political ranting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr._johngalt
This debate feels like torture to me. Just tell me what you want to learn.
You know I have the answers.

JG

If Nancy Pelosi becomes Speaker of the House, what is the appropriate time to wait before shooting myself? Be merciful!
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 07:46 PM   #94
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by Arc

If Nancy Pelosi becomes Speaker of the House, what is the appropriate time to wait before shooting myself? Be merciful!
I think all Republicans should just shoot themselves right now and avoid the pain of witnessing this election.

In reality, I don't think the Dems are going to gain nearly as much as the press seems to be implying they will.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-29-2006, 08:01 PM   #95
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Re: More political ranting

So, when it comes to Republicans, all of a sudden gun control doesn't matter, eh?


Politics is torture. Perhaps we'd all be better off just working through a nice bottle of wine together ...
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-30-2006, 02:23 PM   #96
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Re: More political ranting

This is a rant thread. Try this:

http://www.searchles.com/search/tag/bush

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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-30-2006, 04:16 PM   #97
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Re: More political ranting

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Originally Posted by Charles
So, when it comes to Republicans, all of a sudden gun control doesn't matter, eh?
It's called compromise. I'm trying to meet NRA fanatics halfway. If they feel they have to own a gun, I'm willing to accept that as long as they use it to put themselves out of their misery.

Actually, I'm not against gun ownership, but I couldn't pass on this opportunity to poke some fun at ailing Reps.
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-30-2006, 04:54 PM   #98
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Re: More political ranting

I'm against gun anything!
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-30-2006, 05:54 PM   #99
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Re: More political ranting

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I'm against gun anything!
Even against my compromise position?
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Re: More political ranting
Old 10-30-2006, 06:03 PM   #100
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Re: More political ranting

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Even against my compromise position?
Yeah
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