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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-01-2007, 02:29 PM   #21
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

thefed,

Chiming in.
- As you probably realize, basing some of his pay on the performance of the business will tend to make him feel an increasing degree of ownership/responsibility for the succes of the biz. While it gives you an "out" to not pay him more if things don't go that well, I think he'll likely blame you for this (since youa re te guy doing the marketing). It think it might also be difficult to make his pay based on tangible factors like showing up on time--do you really want to be in the position of havng to document his arrival time ach day? No. Finaly, if he feels more "ownership" in the biz, he becomes more of a partner and less of an hourly worker--based on what you've said, I dont think this is a great thing.

- You really shouldn't compare his "hourly rate" to yours. You are taking all the risk in the business, and have money tied up in equipment, etc. You (and he) should properly compare his hourly rate to what you would have to pay others to do the same work. If you could get someone else to show up on time t do this work for less, then you owe it to yourself and your customers to do that. Ultimately, you might even be doing him a favor--if he really needs/wants to make more money, then he should find a line of work that will enable him to do that.

- Don't expect your personal relationship with this person to survive the end of the business relationship. I dont think he'll be able to make a distinction between the two.

- He might become a competitor, but this doesn't sound like much of a threat. You know what it takes to run a successful business: Does this guy have it? I'd say that showing up to work on time is a fairly low bar, and he's tripping over it.

Best of luck for a propserous 2007
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-01-2007, 04:12 PM   #22
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Hi Fed. Reading between your lines I think you need to stop worrying about your employee (the former friend) and focus on communication with the spouse. Sounds like both of you are resenting things about the other. Don't let it fester too long.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-01-2007, 06:40 PM   #23
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Hi Fed. Reading between your lines I think you need to stop worrying about your employee (the former friend) and focus on communication with the spouse. Sounds like both of you are resenting things about the other. Don't let it fester too long.
i think it was just a bad day for her...that time of the month. everything was a-ok today, she apologized, and i rarely hold a grudge. we have a VERY open relationship and things usually can only fester for a few days before oneor the other gets it out! i think part of it was her drinking...she DOES NOT and HAS NOT nor WILL EVER drink @ home, but she had a few drinks, got tired, and passed out. If we're at abar or another house for a party...oh boy......i LOOOOOVE those nights


And thanks everyone for the advice. He and I have a game tomorrow night (go Cavs!) and we're going to have a nice long talk. I really dont want to lose him as a friend/aqquaintance, nor as an employee. We're going to have to talk it thru and see what happens. If anything, I'd rather lose him as an employee...because i dont see being able to cut the friendship and have the business-side still work (we actully have a LOT of fun together working...its almost like it was back in high school...goofing off, joking around, but still gettin 'r done!)

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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-02-2007, 07:09 AM   #24
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

In the past I have employed so called friends and even worse family. I was extremely naÔve and thought that it would be a very good win-win situation; it never turned out that way. My advice is to keep business and personal separate or in many cases you donít end up with either, you will loose your friend and your employee.

As far as compensation I pay my good employees way above the amount that they can get anywhere else, not because Iím this great guy but in my case I believe it just makes good business sense. I have very low turnover at the high skill area along with very high productivity. I also feel I tend to get a much better caliber of person. In your line of work you need to weigh out the many factors and make pay decisions that best fit your business model. Donít ever base your employees pay on your pay, youíre the owner, you take all the risk and deserve the rewards when they are there. If your friend does a good job then he very well may be worth the extra dollars and you should look at it as a business decision and nothing more. If the friendship is going to go south you might be able to retain a good employee. Itís very hard to have both.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-02-2007, 06:58 PM   #25
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

OK, I have NO business experience. And I only have three friends. Each of them has fought side by side with me and we have been responsible for each other's lives several times each way. I am the named guardian of the minor children of two of them, even over their own families, and one of them was the named guardian for my daughter when she would have needed one. A whole bunch more acquaintances, but only three friends. That said, this will probably be met with howls of derision and incredulity.

You say the money isn't really going to hurt you any, so why stress over it? If it does bother you, offer him half of what he asked for. But if you really want to keep him be ready to give him the entire amount. If the guy is truly a FRIEND, consider making him a minority partner. I would never have one of my friends work for me, with me yes, but not for me.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-02-2007, 07:29 PM   #26
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
I only have three friends. Each of them has fought side by side with me and we have been responsible for each other's lives several times each way. That said, this will probably be met with howls of derision and incredulity.
I understand that. I don't think most people have the opportunity to make friends under fire, not that they should, and I don't think thefed has that kind of friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredbop
But if you really want to keep him be ready to give him the entire amount. If the guy is truly a FRIEND, consider making him a minority partner. I would never have one of my friends work for me, with me yes, but not for me.
It's hard to tell the difference here between the loyalty of friendship and the mercenary attitude of bribery/blackmail.

Instead of searching for ways to say "Yes", maybe it's better to consider whether a true friend would make such a pay request in the first place.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 06:16 AM   #27
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Fed, what kind of benefits do you give him? Any? If not maybe put something in place that would benefit him AND you instead of a raise?
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 07:11 AM   #28
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

This is my second reply to this post, my first one I deleted because it was to bitter. I had pretty well the same situation you have. Self employed small business employing one friend, who asked for a 40% raise even thought he didn't deserve it.
Bottom line, I gave it to him, finding out later that he felt he deserved it since I could afford it. It didn't stop there, he asked for another one in 6 months, which he didn't get, and eventually helped me decide to end the business and retire. This friend took advantage of the fact that I made good money,he would show up for work late, so I drove him in, he would take longer lunches if I didn't take it with him, damage equipment which i had to repair. The list is endless, but the end result is, I let him take advantage of me because he was a friend, but that was my mistake also. When I had the time I sat him down during company time and had a serious talk with him which only helped for a couple of days.

I agree with those that posted, business is business. For me, I simply had enough and he was a contributing factor in me finally saying, I'd had enough and retired early.

Who knows, maybe I should have deleted this post also.

Good luck!

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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 07:19 AM   #29
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefed

when i complained about playing LIFE, she put everything away, dumped her vodka down the drain, and hit the sack. and why? i dunno yet, maybe i'll 'get it' next year....

...working out the #'s for the business and my personal goals next year....and browsing an ER website...how much better does it get

Ah, I used to be deaf to these signals too. Allow me:

To please DW in real life meant putting real life on hold to play Life in your real life and not to instead plan your future life in your real life.

Patently clear.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 08:29 AM   #30
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by My Dream

I agree with those that posted, business is business. For me, I simply had enough and he was a contributing factor in me finally saying, I'd had enough and retired early.
Wait a second. You can't leave us hanging without a conclusion. So what happened with the business? Did the "friend" take over and get rich, or was he left in the cold to ponder his mistakes?
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 08:45 AM   #31
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Wait a second. You can't leave us hanging without a conclusion. So what happened with the business? Did the "friend" take over and get rich, or was he left in the cold to ponder his mistakes?

The business still exists in name only; I cancelled the phone #, fax # etc. My plan was to train him over 5 years so he could take over the business, and it was at no charge. We lasted 2.5 years at which I felt he was in no way even close to being able to do so both in knowledge, skill and maturity. The final days were when I told him that one of his mistakes cost me $10,000 of which I was able to rectify temporarily and the outcome is still unknown. I simply told him, I'd had enough, and that's all it took for him to know how I felt since the many talks we had, prepared him for that final statement.
He now works as a laborer and admits to me that it's a lot harder but tells me the money is better, although I found out it's not.

If he had been a good employee and we had become a great team, I believe I'd still be working for another 3 more years.

PS. Friend or not, it's hard to find good help, as I said in another post, out of 15 people I tried to train, my best employee was my wife, although he wasn't cut out for it.

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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 11:04 AM   #32
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

I recommend that you set up a bonus system based on the things that you set out as goals--getting there on time, skill growth, and anything else you decide on.

Keep track of these and give him a report each month of how he is doing.

At the end of the year, or every so often, say quarterly or monthly, calculate a bonus based on how he did (and, maybe) how the business did.

Ray
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 01-03-2007, 11:14 AM   #33
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Bonus: Make it clearly discretionary. State the criteria in general terms.
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 02-08-2007, 06:19 PM   #34
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefed
i think it was just a bad day for her...that time of the month. everything was a-ok today, she apologized, and i rarely hold a grudge. we have a VERY open relationship and things usually can only fester for a few days before oneor the other gets it out! i think part of it was her drinking...she DOES NOT and HAS NOT nor WILL EVER drink @ home, but she had a few drinks, got tired, and passed out. If we're at abar or another house for a party...oh boy......i LOOOOOVE those nights


And thanks everyone for the advice. He and I have a game tomorrow night (go Cavs!) and have we're going to a nice long talk. I really dont want to lose him as a friend/aqquaintance, nor as an employee. We're going to have to talk it thru and see what happens. If anything, I'd rather lose him as an employee...because i dont see being able to cut the friendship and have the business-side still work (we actully have a LOT of fun together working...its almost like it was back in high school...goofing off, joking around, but still gettin 'r done!)

By the way, what ever happened?
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 02-09-2007, 04:59 PM   #35
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

i agree with the comments here - but wanted to throw in something else...

that in your conversation (if it is ongoing or hasn't happened yet) - that you also say that you are working on being a better employer - that you want to make sure you two are able to clearly define expectations of each other as employee and boss and that you have some discomfort because you are friends - in terms of enforcing those boundaries - but that you are working on that and would like the same from him (ie be on time buddy!).

while he may have taken advantage - it takes two to tango - so the taker only takes from those who allow it...and i'm not saying you have to come down on him or anything...just say let's improve expectations on both sides and keep this good thing going for the both of us.

perhaps have a quarterly review together to go over what has been working, perhaps give him more responsibility and a cut of the profits if he indeed had a hand in improving your business.

it is likely the case he had to go through a lot of mental stress figuring out how to ask for the raise and he likely said 30% hoping to get a portion of that amount.

if he has been a good employee for that time then figure out a reward system that will benefit you both...and less guess work involved for the both of you.

good luck!
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)
Old 02-10-2007, 06:19 PM   #36
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Re: MY "best" friend really baffles me. Friends? hmmm... (long)

well we did talk, over a beer and a cavs game...and we seem to be good now.

im a bit more liberal with the cashflow if it's there, and he hasnt complained about it when im not. hes been on time all the time, and understands my akward position as employer and friend

we ARE guys, and we seem to have a stereotypical GUY type of comminication barrier...but when we do talk and are totally open, it helps a lot. i notice hes been trying to communicate his feelings more, even correcting his bitching/whining once into an "I statement" (I feel like xxxx when xxxx happens)

Thanks for checking in though! We'll see how long it lasts
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:43 AM   #37
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:36 PM   #38
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ups and downs. we were at odds a month or so ago about different things, but i think it stemmed from another rejected raise request.

i think the thing keeping him passified is that he realized he makes MORE when working for me (per hour) than working for himself in his lawncare business


We've been doing some big schools and buildings lately (high dollar jobs), and ive been able to pay him around $30/hr including lunches and travel time. So that has passified him a bit lately. Just signed another one today!

we just got our season tickets for the CAVS courtesy of the company, so I hope we can tolerate each other through next june at least! lol
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