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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 06:13 AM   #221
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
I don't claim to fully understand the Bible, but I will attempt to explain why I quoted what I did.

But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.* That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:6-7 NIV

The above verse implies to me that only the prayers of true believers will be answered.* I quoted the*verse in an attempt to show that those who wanted to investigate the Bible's miracle claims first hand might begin by seeking true believers.

I never noticed much in the way of healing/miracles personally, until I started working with a true believer.* We became friends, and I was able to observe his family life during numerous visits to his home.* When he and his wife prayed, things happened.* This was also true of other true believers that he associated with.
This is a true story (for your amusement).
When Hemingway was married to his 2nd wife
(Pauline Peiffer, a devout Catholic) he developed temporary
impotence. He tried everything but nothing worked.
Finally, Pauline said, "Why don't you try prayer? You've
tried everything else." So he (feeling as he put it
"Like a damn fool!") found a Catholic church, got on his knees
and prayed fervently for an uplifting message from heaven.
Then, he went home and they made love "Like we
invented it." "And that", he said, "is when I decided to
become a Catholic."

JG
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:00 AM   #222
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Try reading The Case for a Creator which attempts debunk darwinism and makes cogent case about intelligent design.
Anyone that attempts to debunk darwinism is an idiot.* I'm sorry if that wasn't gentle.*

Darwinian thinking is the foundational basis for modern science today.* *If you take darwinian process and natural selection out of science, our modern understanding of science would literally crumble all the way to freshman biology courses.* *Seriously, we'd have to close the doors to the biology department and completely regroup because things like structure/function and "survival of the fittest" forms the foundation of our thinking; meaning the way we (scientists) evaluate our world operates in accordance to these foundational understandings.

Intelligent design, even if it was true, is not science.* *Science starts with the unknown, hypothesis are formed then tested, and only after repeated, overlapping evidence, does one move to a theory, such as* the theory of evolution.* *

Religion works completely the opposite;* it is assumed from the outset something is true (because the bible said it), then one attempts to collect evidence to "prove" the original, and already accepted assumption.

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:02 AM   #223
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
This is a true story (for your amusement).
When Hemingway was married to his 2nd wife
(Pauline Peiffer, a devout Catholic) he developed temporary
impotence.* He tried everything but nothing worked.
Finally, Pauline said, "Why don't you try prayer?* You've
tried everything else."* So he (feeling as he put it
"Like a damn fool!")* found a Catholic church, got on his knees
and prayed fervently for an uplifting message from heaven.
Then, he went home and they made love "Like we
invented it."* "And that", he said, "is when I decided to
become a Catholic."*

JG


Reminds me of the old saying, "There are no atheists in a Fox Hole."
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:12 AM   #224
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by wabmester
Or maybe he's talking about that other sin: spilling your seed.* *(Forgive me Father for I have sinned.* *BTW, can I borrow your hanky?)

Azanon, you are welcome to the Church of Wab.* *The only sin is forgetting to tithe 10% of your income to our church.
Yeah, but do we still get to celebrate the Feast of Maximum Occupancy?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:16 AM   #225
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Well, I won't get into what those versus may or may not have been reffering to
I believe i saw occam's razor mentioned once earlier in this thread. *For a recap, the most likely explanation is usually the correct one. * Specifically, if the bible says you'll be thrown in the lake of fire, occam's razor would say that the bible was really talking about a lake of fire. * Sure, you can have alternative explanations, but you know from the outset, using occam's razor, they will inherently be less likely to be true. * But you are entitled to an opinion, and like all my christain friends, i encourage you to "keep the hope alive!"! *

the irony of debating scripture with an atheist is too much for this simple man.What's ironic, is i actually consider myself the simpleton. * I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. *It is you that has the answers to life figured out because you know for sure all these things about God and such since you proclaim he is alive. * Me, being the simple and humble man, admits I dont know whether God is alive or not, because neither I nor anyone else has proven it one way or the other yet.

The atheist is just as arrogant as you are, in that he proclaims God doesn't exist when he cannot prove it. *Again, i dont mean to offend you by saying you're arrogant, but how could you not be, if you say you know for sure God exists, yet cannot prove it? *

Yes, i'm aware 80% of the USA have identified themselves in national polls as "christain", so that definitely puts me in a minority. * Then again, it was once a general consensus that the world was flat, too.

Quote:
I know several scientists, including DW (MS, works in Biotech) who are Christians and have no feelings of conflict
I know several people that claim to be scientists, many of which happen to have the actual respective degrees, that arn't scientsts (IMO if you insist). * Anyone that rejects darwinian process and the theory of evolution is not a scientist in my opinion. * Again, the very foundation of modern science today is structured from darwinian thinking and process, and its is the #1 guidance for how a real scientist would carry out original research. * If one rejects this, it is extremely difficult for me to even knowledge said person as a scientist. Many science professors, especially the ones holding the higher degrees like Ph.D's, would agree with me on this.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:18 AM   #226
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Got* a lady friend amigo?
:

Quote:
Or maybe he's talking about that other sin: spilling your seed.
If that's going to damn me, i might as well just go now. Been doing that since i was 14.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 09:22 AM   #227
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Specifically, if the bible says you'll be thrown in the lake of fire, occam's razor would say that the bible was really talking about a lake of fire.
I agree.

Quote:
...our modern understanding of science would literally crumble...
Scientists change their theories all the time. Life goes on.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 09:26 AM   #228
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Scientists change their theories all the time.* Life goes on.
No they don't.* *Congradulations on just demonstrating you dont know what a theory is.

A theory is knocking on the door of being a law.* One something reaches the level of a theory, it has gone through massive scrutany to get to that point.* It is highly uncommon for a scientific theory to be later rejected.

But the theory of Evolution and Darwining thinking/process was so paramount in science, it completely regeared and reformed the basis of scientific thought. This is no "aside" theory. It is now the foundation and cornerstone of modern science today.

Perhaps you were thinking of hypothesis?* *
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 01:52 PM   #229
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by azanon
I believe i saw occam's razor mentioned once earlier in this thread. For a recap, the most likely explanation is usually the correct one.
That must be anazon's razor, and I don't think anyone would argue with it. Occam's Razor was correctly stated my wab --
"one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything."
It means that the simplist explaination is the best.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 02:08 PM   #230
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Thanks for the clarification.* *i'm glad to see that changes the premise of my point by exactly zero.

Occam's razor would support the simpliest explanation is the most likely one.* *And on the contrary, there are plenty that argue with logical reasoning. Have you not been following this thread?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 05:06 PM   #231
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

OK, I've got the ultimate occam's razor question: What is consciousness? Where do you think it came from? (From quarks or gluons rubbing together?) Does it even exist? At what point in evolution did it appear? How did it arrive from matter? Is it like gravity? You can't see it, but you can see the objects it moves/deals with?

I'll be back. I will go somewhere with this, but I need some friction to start. Keep it simple enough so as to include all the possibilities, please. Thank you.

--Greg


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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 05:10 PM   #232
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
What is consciousness?

--Greg
I'll have to give this one some thought and get back to you...

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 05:27 PM   #233
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
What is consciousness?* Where do you think it came from?* (From quarks or gluons rubbing together?)* Does it even exist?* At what point in evolution did it appear?* How did it arrive from matter?* *Is it like gravity?* You can't see it, but you can see the objects it moves/deals with?
I have a related question: why do we think consciousness is so special? If it's defined as self-awareness + volition, then I'm pretty sure my dogs possess this quality. They make choices, and sometimes they'll stick their tails between their legs when they get caught.

This is just one of the many emergent properties of complex neural systems. As a fun experiment, you can create very simple systems that appear to have volition. For example, build a little robot, include a light sensor, and wire it up to turn into the light. You'll observe its behavior, and you may say "how cute, it likes light." Now, multiply that by 100 billion neurons, and you get even cooler stuff like "consciousness."
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 05:41 PM   #234
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
. . .What is consciousness?*
I don't know. How do you define it?

Quote:
Where do you think it came from?* (From quarks or gluons rubbing together?)* Does it even exist?* At what point in evolution did it appear?* How did it arrive from matter?* *Is it like gravity?* You can't see it, but you can see the objects it moves/deals with?*
If I don't know what it is or how you define it, how can I possibly answer questions about it?

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 05:53 PM   #235
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

What is consciousness?

I don't know?

Ask your cat or dog?

.....or a goldfish?

...or a snake?

..or an ant?

.or a worm?

an amoeba?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 06:00 PM   #236
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

I thought the Matrix movies (all 3) clearly explained consciousness. Why would this need to be debated at this point?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 06:32 PM   #237
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Zipper
Ask your cat or dog?
[... or] an amoeba?
I asked my ameoba, and she just looked at me funny and then split.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 07:58 PM   #238
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

This is definitely going tobe harder than I thought .

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 08:30 PM   #239
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipper
What is consciousness?

I don't know?

Ask your cat or dog?

.....or a goldfish?

...or a snake?

..or an ant?

.or a worm?

an amoeba?
I need you to use words. Pointing (at animals) doesn't count until I say it counts . It is invisible, isn't it? That's a start. Perhaps, supernatural? Or did you do a Zen thingy on me?

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-26-2005, 10:22 PM   #240
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by azanon
I believe i saw occam's razor mentioned once earlier in this thread. For a recap, the most likely explanation is usually the correct one. Specifically, if the bible says you'll be thrown in the lake of fire, occam's razor would say that the bible was really talking about a lake of fire. Sure, you can have alternative explanations, but you know from the outset, using occam's razor, they will inherently be less likely to be true. But you are entitled to an opinion, and like all my christain friends, i encourage you to "keep the hope alive!"!

What's ironic, is i actually consider myself the simpleton. I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. It is you that has the answers to life figured out because you know for sure all these things about God and such since you proclaim he is alive. Me, being the simple and humble man, admits I dont know whether God is alive or not, because neither I nor anyone else has proven it one way or the other yet.

The atheist is just as arrogant as you are, in that he proclaims God doesn't exist when he cannot prove it. Again, i dont mean to offend you by saying you're arrogant, but how could you not be, if you say you know for sure God exists, yet cannot prove it?

Yes, i'm aware 80% of the USA have identified themselves in national polls as "christain", so that definitely puts me in a minority. Then again, it was once a general consensus that the world was flat, too.

I know several people that claim to be scientists, many of which happen to have the actual respective degrees, that arn't scientsts (IMO if you insist). Anyone that rejects darwinian process and the theory of evolution is not a scientist in my opinion. Again, the very foundation of modern science today is structured from darwinian thinking and process, and its is the #1 guidance for how a real scientist would carry out original research. If one rejects this, it is extremely difficult for me to even knowledge said person as a scientist. Many science professors, especially the ones holding the higher degrees like Ph.D's, would agree with me on this.
(sigh) but I already finished explaining we aren't creationists/intelligent designers etc. We don't believe science and faith are in conflict, see the reference to 6 days to create the earth as metaphorical etc. I would ask you kindly to please try not to revise/define what I believe, you are totally free to disagree with what I actually said.

What did I say that was arrogant? If somebody says "I think there's more than meets the eye", they are arrogant? More irony as you state they only claim to be scientists and you will withhold a verdict until you finish your peer review. I'm sorry if I offended you azanon, you seem pretty wrapped around the axle on this one and I have tried (and failed) to meet you half way on this before. If I did something in particular, please let me know, and I'll try to refrain from doing it again. If you are just looking to spar, that's fine too.
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