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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 10:54 AM   #241
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by wabmester
I have a related question: why do we think consciousness is so special? If it's defined as self-awareness + volition, then I'm pretty sure my dogs possess this quality. They make choices, and sometimes they'll stick their tails between their legs when they get caught.

This is just one of the many emergent properties of complex neural systems. As a fun experiment, you can create very simple systems that appear to have volition. For example, build a little robot, include a light sensor, and wire it up to turn into the light. You'll observe its behavior, and you may say "how cute, it likes light." Now, multiply that by 100 billion neurons, and you get even cooler stuff like "consciousness."
Thanks for the questions. From your second paragraph I get the feeling we are not talking about my original question. I feel like things are creeping in that don't belong there as yet. Please tell me if I'm wrong:

I believe in your basic definition of 'self awareness" you are including everything that may or may not be included in the mind, such as thoughts, perceptions, and movements. I'm looking for a basic definition of consciousness devoid any extrainious objects. (BTW, numerous philosophy pieces have been written about whether consciousness can exist without an object. No real agreement has been reached in modern philosophy, to my mind.) A workable definition used in the legal realm is "witness"--a sort of observer of events who is not allowed to add spin ("Just the facts, Ma'am.")

Why do I think consciousness is so important/special? One reason for this importance is that I think in the medical profession the permanent loss of consciousness is evidence of death. It must be important to someone. No? Taking it away must mean something to someone. On a daily basis, we I sometimes say things like "You know, DW, that guy sounds like he's only half conscious. Let's buy our used car 4x4 truck with racing strips, big engine, and power windows somewhere else." We use the term all the time. It's important to me.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 12:07 PM   #242
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
Why do I think consciousness is so important/special?* One reason for this importance is that I think in the medical profession the permanent loss of consciousness is evidence of death.
Now we're getting somewhere. We were using different definitions, but now you've answered your own question. Your consciousness is the lack of brain-death. Or, if you prefer, the presence of brain activity. So, by that definition, consciousness is not a special feature of humans. Some people think that the definition I was using (self-awareness, volition) is special to humans.

So, you want to know how the first brain evolved? I have no idea, but brains basically serve two purposes: sensory processing and motor control. So, if you really want to go back to the origin of consciousness, we need to go back to the evolution of the first motor function (probably a flagellum) and first sensor (probably a chemoreceptor). Is that were you want to go with this?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 12:23 PM   #243
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

How does the saying go?

I hope to someday be the man my dog thinks I am....

I think Lily has more awareness than I...she stares at me with this penetrating gaze until I go get the biscuit...stares at the leash and the door...she realizes that I 'm not easy to communicate with so she works with me at my level...
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 01:42 PM   #244
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by wabmester
Now we're getting somewhere. We were using different definitions, but now you've answered your own question. Your consciousness is the lack of brain-death. Or, if you prefer, the presence of brain activity. So, by that definition, consciousness is not a special feature of humans. Some people think that the definition I was using (self-awareness, volition) is special to humans.

So, you want to know how the first brain evolved? I have no idea, but brains basically serve two purposes: sensory processing and motor control. So, if you really want to go back to the origin of consciousness, we need to go back to the evolution of the first motor function (probably a flagellum) and first sensor (probably a chemoreceptor). Is that were you want to go with this?
No, I actually want to go further back--but not just yet.

I agree. Consciouness is not a special (isolated) feature of humans. I think dogs have consciousness. I think that even plants may have consciousness also (they react to the sun, don't they, sometimes tracking it with their flowers faces? This indicates some form of intelligence, doesn't it? But maybe not? I'll think about it.)

I do believe humans have a higher order of intelligence than flowers. The old, standard definition says that people are special because they are rational--they intermediate their instincts with something. Oftentimes that intermediation is refered to as thought.

For argument's and Occam's sake, I would like to define that intermediation gap as simplistically existing between words and their bearers. For example, when I say the word "cucumber," you hear or see the word and imagine a large, unvinegared pickle in your mind (or perhaps you see a large vinegared one in mine . ) Humans understand the distinction between the word and the bearer.

My guess is that dogs and such don't have that ability to intermediate as much. They hear 'treat' or 'sit' and instinctively sit. Primarily stimulus-response. Like a computer machine built by some greater power such as a man-programmer.

You put a great deal more in your sentences above, I know. I'll come back to it all, I hope. Later. Thank you.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 02:26 PM   #245
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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And on the contrary, there are plenty that argue with logical reasoning. Have you not been following this thread?
I think it's mistaken to apply logical reasoning to religion. Christianity is governed by faith, not logic. Faith has no place in science.

I am interested in seeing where Apocalypse is heading.

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 05:53 PM   #246
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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. . . I am interested in seeing where Apocalypse is heading.

Yeah, but I probably only have another 40 or so years in retirement before I'm dead. I'm not sure that's going to be enough time at the rate he's going.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-27-2005, 07:39 PM   #247
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by DanTien
How does the saying go?

I hope to someday be the man my dog thinks I am....

I think Lily has more awareness than I...she stares at me with this penetrating gaze until I go get the biscuit...stares at the leash and the door...she realizes that I 'm not easy to communicate with so she works with me at my level...
Heh, someday I hope to be a gentle, sweet, good and open-hearted as any of the dogs I have owned.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 11:53 AM   #248
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Yeah, but I probably only have another 40 or so years in retirement before I'm dead. I'm not sure that's going to be enough time at the rate he's going.
Don't forget, I said I could prattle on after I drop dead. In that event, I have a meeting place for us. You'll just have to wait, I'm just not sure I can make it forty years so that we both arrive at the same time. But I'll try.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 12:54 PM   #249
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I am not going to claim something as a truth on the basis of faith or belief, because i believe to do so is, by definition, illogical and irrational.



Azanon: I think what you really mean by faith is 'faith in God.' Because faith, in general, is all over you like a wet blanket. As an example: In your youth, when you were in the back seat of a car with a young lady and a bottle of wine, you had faith something good would happen at some point. No? On the other hand, the young lady had faith that when she said 'no' you would stop doing whatever it was you were doing or thinking about doing. Two different types of faith meeting in the back seat--and mixed with a little wine. Certainly an inter-denominational activity going on. :.

Scientists use/have faith: They postulate a theory and then have faith that the evidence shows it to be true. You have a weak sort of faith about many things at any point in time: faith that the road to work is still there (unless you live in California where you might slow down as you go around a corner in case the road disappeared from a mud slide), faith the wall behind your computer screen will stay fixed and not crumble, etc.

Merk scientists mucked with their science for an advantage. They ignored evidence about Vioxx and failed to publish it. That's why 'objectivity' is so important in science and on the witness stand. Those Merk scientists fiddled with their evidence--not a good thing.

A dog's world: I've been thinking again, oops. I think a big difference between dog consciousness and human consciousness is one of more emergent ( ) awareness. I think a dog is aware of sensory stimulation and such stuff as treats, hats, girl dogs, etc. But humans are aware that they are aware of sensory stimulation and/or thoughts. The dog may think "Yep, if I bark, then the dummy over there will let me out, yup."--me-owner-door-desire to pee, all together at the same time, time to bark. People have thoughts and then think about those thoughts--kind of objectively--as things still in the self but separate from them too. To be weighed and considered--not to be acted on just because they (the thoughts) are there. This awareness of awareness may only be in humans--a key emergent quality of consciousness or awareness. This seems to me to definitely be a trait or characteristic of human consciousness, or no? Thanks for any responses, in advance.

--Greg

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 04:49 PM   #250
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

I believe in lots of things. Each time I take a step, I believe the ground won't disappear beneath my foot and leave me hurtling toward the center of the earth. Change "believe" to "have faith" and I don't have a problem with that. But don't mistake that faith for a religious faith. This is a common, but invalid, argument technique. Words have multiple meanings. Sometimes those meaning differences are subtle. You can't simply build an argument with the word "faith", then switch the context and draw conclusions.

As a scientist, my beliefs (faith) must always be doubted and I must be willing and ready to abandon them if facts refute the underlying theory or if a more compelling or more elegant theory describes the data with greater accuracy. In fact, as a scientist, I should doubt all theory and observation, should test all of them, should search for alternate hypothesis.

Certainly some scientists fail, but those that do not fail are the ones that advance science and build our knowledge. Scientists who approach their work with a drive to prove their hypothesis and build a case for, rather than to test honestly and completely, are overuled eventually by a scientific community that will not tolerate stagnation of knowledge. In science, your beliefs (your faith if you insist) will be tested -- if not by you then by others. And if you cling to your theories and try to keep them even when the facts do not support you, you become discredited.

I don't want to attack anyone's religious faith. Everyone is entitled to their own personal spiritual beliefs -- as long as they keep them personal. But there is a significant difference between religious faith and science. The difference is fundamental. Those who have religious faith shouldn't try to reconcile that faith with science. And those that pursue science should not expect to disprove what people hold on faith.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 08:02 PM   #251
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Change "believe" to "have faith" and I don't have a problem with that. But don't mistake that faith for a religious faith. This is a common, but invalid, argument technique.
Same technique was used by Georgia's Cobb County school disrict. The schools there pput stickers in the science textbooks which said: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

A few years later a judge ruled against the them and they removed the stickers. If the motivation was science education they could have achieved their goals by teaching what a scientific theory is. A general discussion of what a theory is would no be controversial.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 08:15 PM   #252
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
But there is a significant difference between religious faith and science.
I don't see why that has to be the case. It's not much of a stretch for me to envision a religion with science as its foundation. Unfortunately, one doesn't exist yet, but that doesn't mean there's a fundamental incompatibility.

I'm sure I'm not the only atheist on the planet that would like to have some of the benefits of a religious heritage without all of the metaphysical baggage.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 10:31 PM   #253
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
I believe in lots of things. Each time I take a step, I believe the ground won't disappear beneath my foot and leave me hurtling toward the center of the earth. Change "believe" to "have faith" and I don't have a problem with that. But don't mistake that faith for a religious faith. . . . Those who have religious faith shouldn't try to reconcile that faith with science. And those that pursue science should not expect to disprove what people hold on faith.
I can't make the distinctions you make. I see faith attached to many different objects and/or ideas. Some of these things may be more important or less important to one observer. And faith may be stronger or weaker, but I don't see the division that you do. OTOH:

Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at SHED
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <culinary science>

It seems to me that science often uses instruments to accomplish its ends. For example, scientists use telescopes to assist with their observations. In fact, the eye(s) is an instrument used by the scientist as a tool in his or her work to discover the truth and knowledge. No? Scientists also need to verify that the instrument is used correctly and that the results of its use are correct.

So too, everything that a scientist does and uses passes thru consciousness at some point or many points in time. In a very real sense, consciousness is a tool of the scientist. (e.g. see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle as a conundrum of science and a conundrum about tools.) Everything is filtered thru consciousness. So, wouldn't it be a good idea to examine it in that light? Maybe we could improve upon the product of science if we understood the instruments used in the process of discovery-- better. I'm trying to scientifically look at the instrument here, the tool of awareness or consciousness. I'm looking for evidence of how consciousness works. I look for what's in our subjectivity, or heads or minds. I don't believe looking at alpha or beta brain waves is actually looking at the instrument as it needs to be looked at. Consciousness appers to me to be a tool of the scientific method.

So, right now, on this thread, we are examining how consciousness works as a tool. If we happen to find God along the way, so be it. But either way, finding out about the instrument that observes knowledge would be important, wouldn't it? I don't see the distinctions that you see as so important quite so important. In fact, they may be an obstruction to finding knowledge and truth. If 'm wrong, in my thinking, please let me know.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-28-2005, 11:46 PM   #254
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Perhaps consciousness is the sensations we experience (sight, sound, touch, etc...), plus our thoughts.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 01:19 AM   #255
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by wabmester
I don't see why that has to be the case.* *It's not much of a stretch for me to envision a religion with science as its foundation.* *. .
And what do you think would distinguish that religion from science? Science is nothing more than the knowledge collected from a process. That process involves observation, hypothesis and test . . .

I don't believe that this is incompatible with establishment of personal and social values (one of the important contributions of religion). But I don't see a logical connection between them. You can observe, hypothesize and test certain things (chemical reactions, the paths of colliding objects, . . .). You can prioritize values for others (lying, cheating, stealing, . . .).

As for the existence of a "supreme being", science can neither prove nor disprove this hypothesis without the cooperation of that being. There are always things beyond the collected knowledge of science. Define this as god, and no one can argue scientifically.

What did you have in mind, wab?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 01:40 AM   #256
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
I can't make the distinctions you make.* I see faith attached to many different objects and/or ideas.* Some of these things may be more important or less important to one observer.* And faith may be stronger or weaker, but I don't see the division that you do.* OTOH:

Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at SHED
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <culinary science>

It seems to me that science often uses instruments to accomplish its ends.* For example, scientists use telescopes to assist with their observations.* In fact, the eye(s) is an instrument used by the scientist as a tool in his or her work to discover the truth and knowledge.* No?* Scientists also need to verify that the instrument is used correctly and that the results of its use are correct.*

So too, everything that a scientist does and uses passes thru consciousness at some point or many points in time.* In a very real sense, consciousness is a tool of the scientist.* (e.g. see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle as a conundrum of science and a conundrum about tools.)* Everything is filtered thru consciousness.* So, wouldn't it be a good idea to examine it in that light?* Maybe we could improve upon the product of science if we understood the instruments used in the* process of discovery-- better.* I'm trying to scientifically look at the instrument here, the tool of awareness or consciousness.* I'm looking for evidence of how consciousness works.* I look for what's in our subjectivity, or heads or minds.* I don't believe looking at alpha or beta brain waves is actually looking at the instrument as it needs to be looked at.* Consciousness appers to me to be a tool of the scientific method.

So, right now, on this thread, we are examining how consciousness works as a tool.* If we happen to find God along the way, so be it.* But either way, finding out about the instrument that observes knowledge would be important, wouldn't it?* I don't see the distinctions that you see as so important quite so important.* In fact, they may be an obstruction to finding knowledge and truth.* If 'm wrong, in my thinking, please let me know.*

--Greg
I have no idea what you're talking about.

In science, you must assume you may be wrong at all times. Hypotheses are turned to theories by a failure to prove them wrong. They remain accepted theories until they are proven wrong through test.

In religion, you assume all answers flow from the supreme being of your choice. All data is interpreted or ignored in order to conform to the assumption.

That is the difference. The processes are incompatible. You can choose to apply one process (science) to the physical world and one process (religion) to the spiritual world. But regardless of the nature and imperfections of conciousness, the two processes are contradictory.

As for consciousness . . . how can we talk about it if you won't define it?

Descartes went down this path. While he is respected for his contribution to the logic of his own existence, most modern philosophers consider his reasoning faulty when he delved into consciousness and god. The arguments have been analyzed in detail by philosophers and college philosophy classes throughout the world.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 09:37 AM   #257
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I think it's mistaken to apply logical reasoning to religion.* Christianity is governed by faith, not logic.* Faith has no place in science.
That's exactly my point.* *Faith isn't logical.* So why have it?* *(logical is basically synonymous with rational).* *

People make every decision in this world using rational, logical thought but make an exception when it comes to God?* *Why make that exception?* Because reality suggets that you wont get to live forever?* Well cry me a river!

Even if God exists, what proof exists to show that the God of the bible and the stories therein are definitely true.* *The bible itself says faith (which is believing in that which you cannot be for sure is true) is required to believe it.* *A couple of you tried to equate the level of faith required for that to the faith i have that my monitor screen wont collapse.* * I think its fair to say it takes slightly less faith to believe the latter (sarcasm intended).

Faith to me is nothing more than assuming, or guessing.* *God might be alive.* God might even be as described in the bible.* The bottom line is none of us know for sure.* *All of us only differ in whether we are willing to admit that or not, as far as i'm concerned.

I am willing to admit we cannot be for sure. Apparently that takes quite a bit of courage because only 1 out of 5 americans (or less) have done so.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 09:40 AM   #258
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SG--OK, and thank you. I agree that I still haven't defined consciousness to my ability and may never exactly give it as you want it. I've sort of skirted around the edges and suggested various traits of it. I do hope you agree on a few basics though such as its 'invisibility," its super-naturalness (it is not objects, or ideas, or perceptions, or language, etc., or anything that exists in the physical realm. I need to think about an explaination for a few days.

As stated before, I'm a Platonist. Everything mentioned to this point is in his writings. Nothing new from me--just application processes. When I talk about faith, I'm talking about and operating from the 'form of faith' that can be applied to many different objects or groups of objects (e.g. I have faith that the molecules under my feet won't collapse when I step on them--and cause me to fall to the center of the earth.) Belief and faith are words that share a common characteristic. For example, those who share a dis-belief in god also share or participate in the word atheist. Those who are ambivalent in belief about god are usually called agnostitics. I tend to prefer the sorts of cleavages of language that are monistic rather than dualistic or even more broken up, meaning I see essences that are permanent throught time and space (and humans?). Individual stoves come and go, the form of the stove exists for a much longer period, e.g. a fire box is required, etc. etc. I follow the synonyms of faith to their source, which is a Platonic methodology and, I believe, the scientific method also. Later . I would hate to get lost in language problems.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 01:54 PM   #259
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by azanon
What's ironic, is i actually consider myself the simpleton. * I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. *It is you that has the answers to life figured out because you know for sure all these things about God and such since you proclaim he is alive. * Me, being the simple and humble man, admits I dont know whether God is alive or not, because neither I nor anyone else has proven it one way or the other yet.

The atheist is just as arrogant as you are, in that he proclaims God doesn't exist when he cannot prove it. *
Right, that's why, in order to avoid being "arrogant," I believe in the possibility of a number of seemingly bizarre and ridiculous things.* For example:

1.* *I can't prove that I not simply a brain in a jar in some alien's experiment.* The alien could have such a deep understanding of the human brain that he is able to stimulate my brain in such a way as to make me believe I am a normal, functioning, walking and talking human being, when in reality, I am just a brain in a jar in the alien's experiement.*

Some people (typically those with an atheistic mindset), would say this is so ridiculously implausible that it is not worth entertaining the possibility it is true.* I, however, want to have an open mind, and therefore I consider it a possibility.

2.* It is quite possible that at some point in the very near future, all of the Earth's dolphins will begin speaking flawless English, and explain to us that they have decided their millenium of self-imposed exile to the oceans has now ended.* They will use their superior intellect (which they have intentionally hidden from human scientists) to resurrect the lost city of Atlantis from the bottom of the ocean, which they long ago destroyed for reasons that they will make known to us when they believe we are ready.

You may say this is impossible, but that is just because you have underestimated the dolphins' ability to conceal their powers from us. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that I cannot prove that the dolphins will not one day rise up, and so, because I don't want to take an "arrogant" attitude toward dolphins' intelligence, I hold out the possibility that it could occur.

3.* It is also possible that little gnomes and gremlins live among us without our knowledge by using a sophisticated, undetectable technology to warp the space-time continuum in such a way that renders them invisible.* They have the power to read our minds, and sometimes use their powers of teleportation to hide stuff that we're looking for.* We think we just misplaced our stuff, while in reality, the little gnomes and gremlins are just toying with us.

While you may think this is highly improbable, I challenge you to conclusively prove that it is not true.* And if you can't disprove it, you must continue to hold out the possibility that it might be true.

REALITY CHECK

Of course, all of the above is preposterous.* So preposterous, in fact, that no rational, non-delusional person would readily entertain the possibility that these fantasies could be real.* The mere fact that you can't disprove something does not make it a realistic possibility.*

But even my theory about the little gnomes who have the power to manipulate the time-space continuum is fundamentally no less kooky than the theory that there's an omniscient, omnipotent magician in the sky who created everything and cares deeply about whether you covet your neighbor's wife, and listens to prayers and grants miracles the way genies grant wishes, and "good people" (whatever that means) go to heaven and enjoy in blissful, eternal happiness, while "bad people" (whatever that means) go to hell and suffer agonizing, relentless torture for the rest of eternity.

No matter how religious theories are tweaked (and everybody has their own creative ways of tweaking them to make the theories more palatable or believable for themselves), they're still just fantasies that creative human brains have concocted to try and make sense of our hugely complex natural world.* An atheist isn't being "arrogant" for recognizing that fact.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 03:33 PM   #260
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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An atheist isn't being "arrogant" for recognizing that fact.
If you think the possiblity that a "God" exists is as equally improbable as those scenarios you listed, I think its safe to say we disagree (for my understatement of the day).* I understood your essential point, but where the "analogy" is not comparable, is that the likelihood that God exists is higher that those fantasy scenarios, though, yes, i would agree the chance of those scenarios being false isnt completely 0.

There is sufficient enough evidence to support at least the hypothesis that "God" exists.* *There is also sufficient enough evidence to reject the irrevokeable declaration that God doesn't exist.* *I'll let the bible thumpers here give you that evidence as they usually have it ready to go to fight off people like me.

Me?* *Its just one of those things i dont have the answers too.* *Someone came up with a term to describe us;* *the Agnostics.* *Yup, I'm one of those really weird humans that doesn't have it all figured out.

Can you imagine me burning in hell? I'd be thinking the whole time, so i'm going to be tormented here because i didn't believe a fairy tale? Well Hells Bells!
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