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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 06:06 PM   #261
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by azanon
I understood your essential point, but where the "analogy" is not comparable, is that the likelihood that God exists is higher that those fantasy scenarios . . . .
Yes, of course, this is the point on which we would differ.* Obviously, my three fantasies are intentionally ridiculous for illustrative purposes.*

But if I were so inclined, I'll bet I could create a new fantasy scenario that didn't sound as ridiculous.* I would concoct a story that was highly palatable to people--something that people really WANT to believe in, rather than something goofy.* I would make sure that the story helped explain human existence, gave comfort to the troubled, and served a beneficial social purpose.* My story would have a moral aimed at uplifting the human spirit and giving people hope that their existence and toils were somehow meaningful in the universe.*

I could tell you about the all the unverifiable discoveries I've made and revelations I've had that support the my story.* I could undoubtedly find a very high number of people to agree that they, too, had had the revelations, and believe in the story.* There would eventually be a whole community of people who believed in the story.* The believers would support each other, and spread the word, and, given enough time, the story would take on a life of its own.* There would be groups of learned experts on the story who would share their knowledge with others.* Parents would teach their children about it.* Laws and whole national cultures would eventually be based upon the story.

This is how religions are formed.* The Mormon church is one of the greatest modern examples.* Established less than 200 years ago, it is now one of the fastest growing faiths in the world, with millions of followers.* It's got a lot of catching-up to do with Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Catholicism, etc., but it's fundamentally no different from all the other religions.* It's a story that a lot of people like to believe in, so they do.

My point is simply this:* I suspect that the reason you believe that the existence of God is somewhat more probable than the existence of invisible gnomes is that (1) you can see a reason for the existence of God, (2) it would be nice if God did exist, and (3) billions of people believe in God (because they've seen miracles, or the koran says so, or the've believed in God since they were kids, etc.), so how can they all be wrong?* In my opinion, however, not one of these reasons really increases the probability that God exists.*

My, isn't it interesting how atheism can breed its own kind of preachiness?* Anyway, I genuinely appreciate everyone else's stimulating posts, and I don't want to take over this thread with my atheistic diatribe.*

I'm hoping someone reading this can make me believe in God (but when you do I'd prefer it to be a just and merciful god, not a cruel and vengeful God, okay?).* At the very least, maybe someone will pray for me.* I'll bet Michael will, right Michael?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 06:34 PM   #262
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 08:27 PM   #263
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by azanon
Can you imagine me burning in hell? I'd be thinking the whole time, so i'm going to be tormented here because i didn't believe a fairy tale? Well Hells Bells!
This touches on something I have been mulling over for a few days. I hope that the Christian (protestant) God doesn't exist. I don't hope that in order to avoid hell. The idea that Faith is the metric by which our eternal reward is determined is aborrent to me.

I mean, honestly, how disgusting an idea is that?

Almost as disgusting an idea as an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-whatever entity wishing to create humans for the purpose of being worshipped.

Of course, the normal argument is that a mere speck of dust like me can't begin to fathom the mind of god, so there might be a wonderful cosmic reason to create a race of beings and filter the "good" ones out based on their capacity to believe. But I for one would be extraordinarily disappointed to learn that the world really works that way.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 09:49 PM   #264
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Here are some thoughts on some one who reconciled the notion of a higher power and a love of science:

http://www.ctinquiry.org/publication...1/torrance.htm

I wonder if this disqualifies him from being considered a real scientist?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-29-2005, 11:49 PM   #265
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I wonder if this disqualifies him from being considered a real scientist?*
Yes.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 02:24 AM   #266
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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At the very least, maybe someone will pray for me. I'll bet Michael will, right Michael?
Father in heaven, please show SLC how much you really love him. In Jesus' name I pray. To God be all the glory.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 04:23 AM   #267
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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...create a race of beings and filter the "good" ones out based on their capacity to believe.
Belief is not used as a filter for figuring out which people are good, since no mortal is good.

Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.* Luke 18:19b NIV

Asking Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour (putting my faith in Jesus) is asking Him to forgive me, and transform me.* To save me from my unloving human nature.* Having faith that God alone is good, can save me, and will save me if I ask Him to.* It is God who makes me good, not something that I can do myself.* Love for the brothers inevitably follows true faith in Lord Jesus:

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.* I John 3:14 NIV

This is all to God's glory alone.* God does the transforming.* Human attempts at loving are worthless, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to earn my way into heaven.* Salvation is God's gift.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 07:13 AM   #268
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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The idea that Faith is the metric by which our eternal reward is determined is aborrent to me.

I mean, honestly, how disgusting an idea is that?
Wow, i'm completely with you on that. Ive pointed that out before, and its like most people dont get that.

See, if God were to come down in a big bang, and make himself known in an unmistakeable way, i'd definitely consider worshipping him a second thought. But the question of christain vs not one, isnt a morality one as the christains would like to believe. Its merely, and only a belief issue. Those that believe a story vs those that arn't convinced. Why cant "that God exists" be a given (or not) for eveyone and the hinge point be the decision to serve him or not serve him? THEN, maybe burning in hell might make some sense because you knew unquestionably that God existed, but rejected him anyway.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 07:17 AM   #269
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I wonder if this disqualifies him from being considered a real scientist?
I'm not going to read the article, but modern day scientists learn about their world using the scientific method. Note this is a matter-of-fact statement.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 07:22 AM   #270
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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My, isn't it interesting how atheism can breed its own kind of preachiness? Anyway, I genuinely appreciate everyone else's stimulating posts, and I don't want to take over this thread with my atheistic diatribe.
Yes, exactly. I already said you're very similar to them in many respects, the main one being that you assume you're definitive answer on the subject (God does not exist) is the correct one, of all the possible 1000s options. So to push that, you have to preach it just like them.

If "they" (those that believe in higher powers) were able to combine all their respective positions as possible choices, i'd say your choice of no God vs alll theirs collectively is a very tight race, 50/50, a toss up. If you've ever had college level philosophy, you know there were many great philosophers that gave intellictually sound arguments for the existence of God. Likewise, there were plenty of great philosophers that argued to the contrary.

You're guessing just like they are, and proclaiming that you're right just like they are. But in fairness to you, if someone forced me to guess, i'd pick your guess.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 07:27 AM   #271
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. Luke 18:19b NIV

Asking Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour (putting my faith in Jesus) is asking Him to forgive me, and transform me. To save me from my unloving human nature. Having faith that God alone is good, can save me, and will save me if I ask Him to. It is God who makes me good, not something that I can do myself. Love for the brothers inevitably follows true faith in Lord Jesus:

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. I John 3:14 NIV

This is all to God's glory alone. God does the transforming. Human attempts at loving are worthless, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to earn my way into heaven. Salvation is God's gift.
Michael, i get the impression you think we're (atheists/agnostics) are not familiar with what the bible says. Really, the preaching isnt necessary. There's a good chance i know the bible better than you do. I simply reject it as truth, because i do not assume without proof (aka faith) it is true, like you do.

Yes, us humans are not perfect. You owe no one an apology for the way that you were born. If anyone's to blame for that, it would be God if he existed.

And for the record, God is anything but good. Have you ever actually read some of the Old Testament?
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 07:30 AM   #272
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Father in heaven, please show SLC how much you really love him. In Jesus' name I pray. To God be all the glory.
I think its kinda cool to have these guys praying for us!
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 09:45 AM   #273
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

> Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone." Luke 18:19b NIV
> It is God who makes me good, not something that I can do myself.

Well, it doesn't sound like even God can make you good since no one is good except God.


> Belief is not used as a filter for figuring out which people are good, since no mortal is good.


Well, okay, let's get our definitions straight. My "good" was intended to mean those who would be saved. The premise is that there is a Heaven and a Hell, and that one of God's roles is to determine those worthy of eternal reward. Those worthy enough was shortened down to "good", based on God's criterion. The sole criterion is faith.

I believe that the Christian doctrine is simple at its heart: If you truly believe in God/Jesus as Lord and Savior, you will be saved and go to heaven. If you agree with that synopsis, then we're just arguing semantics.

good = those who will be saved
earn way into heaven = accept God's gift of salvation through faith



Actually, this is putting a different spin on the argument. I didn't really want to get into whether or not God exists, but rather whether or not I WANT him to exist. I don't want him to exist because the rationale for going to heaven is ludicrous. Even if you have the truth of it, I don't have to like it.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 11:08 AM   #274
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

"Jesus freaks are a friendly bunch,
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 12:05 PM   #275
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Amen bro Kronk and bro Have Funds, Will Retire! Lets all have a round of applause!

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 12:37 PM   #276
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I'm not going to read the article
Cool! You're a zealot nut too!!
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 12:59 PM   #277
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Is there a god? No honest, rational person should pretend to know the answer to this. No matter how strong ones faith might be, it is still just an opinion...that's why they call it faith and not fact.

As to Christianity, like Kronk I feel there are key tenets that make no sense whatsoever. Maybe they made sense to the intensely superstitious individuals that wrote them down thousands of years ago, but people of that time believed a lot of things that are now known to be nonsense. In fact, I would guess that most things that passed for "fact" 2000 years ago have been shown to be incorrect. (just my opinion)

I'll continue to muddle through life, secure in the knowledge that I don't know and you don't either!
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 01:04 PM   #278
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Cool! You're a zealot nut too!!
I dont like literature on aliens from other planets nor do i read the National Enquirer. I would think my not reading these types of things would make me anything but a zealot. Besides, an agnostic is the antithesis to zealotry.

Also, I didnt need to read the article to (correctly) answer his question. Granted, i had answered it once before. Some people need to hear things 2 or 3 times though, and i understand that.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 01:11 PM   #279
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

I am seeing a lot of arrogance and ignorance. People should not be surprised to learn that the gods that they create out of their own imaginations do not exist.

Actually looking into the facts, the evidence is overwhelming: Michael is right.

Have fun.

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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-30-2005, 01:15 PM   #280
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

You call out arrogance and ignorance, then immediately follow it with an arrogant and ignorant statement. Good work man!
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