My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

[Mr._johngalt]

This is one of my favorite topics

First, if I were to invent a religion, it would make perfect sense to come up with a few catchy rules such as:

1) This is the one true religion.   All others are bogus.

2) Spread the word about (1).

3) If you don't believe me, fine.   Burn in hell for all eternity.

Anyway, all of this theism vs atheism stuff eventually boils down to absolute vs relative morals.    Some people simply can't accept that there are no absolute morals, and they extrapolate moral relativism into some sort of anarchy.

So, let me give my warm and fuzzy atheistic sermon.

We are all human.   We humans are all related.   In fact, all living things are related.   Not only that, but all physical things are related.    Scientific Materialism gives you three levels of brotherhood.   Beat that, theists!

As humans, we are slaves to our genetic programming.    The good news is that our programming includes the biological basis of "love," "empathy,"  and other "moral" qualities that are considered the benefits of religious absolute moralism.    The bad news is that our programming also includes the ability to classify people and ideas into simple categories like "similar" and "different", "good" and "bad."  And we have a wicked flight or fight response to some of these categories.   Relgion feeds upon this.

Life is full of deep, beautiful, and inspirational stuff without the metaphysical stuff of religion.    But I'll admit that we atheists lack cool rituals, songs, and neighborhood gatherings to celebrate and teach the beauty and complexity of life.    I think this is a fixable problem and eventually these old-fashioned religions will enter obsolescence where they belong.

Amen.

I am an agnostic, but partly because it is slightly less harsh than "atheist".
OTOH, I can accept some kind of "cosmic connection". I have faith in Mother Nature. Humanity? I vote "no confidence".

JG

 

[JWR1945]

Thank you, Michael.

Many people are horribly ignorant of the word of God. Several have demonstrated their ignorance on this thread.

Many people like to make up their own make-believe gods, instead of learning the facts.

My preference for factual information is the Thru The Bible Radio program, available on the web at:
www.ttb.org

Have fun.

John Walter Russell

 

[Austin_Explorer]

Which one do I subscribe to?  I don't want to pick the wrong one and burn in Hell forever . . .

It's safer to play all the angles, just in case.

But according to South Park there is one true religion and only its adherents are to be found in Heaven. They are? The Mormons, much to the chagrin of the other adherents who found out that they had made the "wrong" choice. Sorry, better luck in an alternate universe!

 

[Honkie]

It's safer to play all the angles, just in case.

But according to South Park there is one true religion and only its adherents are to be found in Heaven.  They are?  The Mormons, much to the chagrin of the other adherents who found out that they had made the "wrong" choice.  Sorry, better luck in an alternate universe!   

A few facts from the ground on religion in China, which is where some of this thread originated.

China has a small yet active Christian Church, Roman Catholic Church, Jewish and Hindu communities, along with a huge Muslim population alongside the more traditional Taoist and Buddhist traditions .They are all free to worship in their temples, churches, mosques etc without let or hindrance. The primary difference between what people in the west consider "free" and the Chinese system is that none of these religious bodies can openly and actively "recruit" or campaign. The fundemental result is policies and government has no religious bias. Thus, the govenmental/political/judicial decisions are not made based on the teaching or belief system of a supreme omnipotent diety (neither yours nor mine, nor anyone's).

By way of example, the next time anyone is in China, and feels the need to contact their spiritual diety they can worship at the:

St. Ignatius Roman Catholic Cathedral in Shanghai (as featured in the opening scenes of the Spielberg movie Empire of the Sun in 1987), or at;

Niujie Mosque, Nujiu Street, Xuanwu District, Beijing or at one of the more than 80 mosques located in Beijing alone, or;

At literally tens of thousands of Buddhist and Taoist temples, or;

At the Chabad Synagogue, 8 Xiao Yun Lu, King's Garden Villa, House D5A
Beijing 100016, one of many synagogues in Beijing; or

The Mormon Temples at B701-703 Fu Cheng Garden 2-8 MING YU YI ROAD
Guangzhou   510600 or The Emerald Forest # 41, The Emerald 2888 HU NAN ROAD
Shanghai   or 54 Jing Shan Village SHEKOU Shenzhen or Mingdo Building, Suite 303 NO. 48, LA SA STREET, HEPING Tianjin   300052. These are just the temples and do not include the many smaller meeting houses that operate all over the country. The Morman's also have a "China Teachers Program" run through Brigham Young University (BYU), in Provo, Utah, which since 1989, has sent over 400 Mormons to Chinese universities, including the prestigious Tsinghua University,where they work as English teachers, but they continually break the rules about wandering the streets trying to sign up members.

Someone will I am sure mention the Falun Gong group as being single out for persecution, and that is true. But in the minds of the Chinese Government, they are not a religious group, but a social/quasi political one.

No proselytizing from me, just a few fact on religious tolerance in China.

 

[bosco]

Many people are horribly ignorant of the word of God. Several have demonstrated their ignorance on this thread.

Many people like to make up their own make-believe gods, instead of learning the facts.

My preference for factual information is the Thru The Bible Radio program, available on the web at:
www.ttb.org

I love this. Translation: If you don't agree with me, you are ignorant. MY version of reality is "the word of God." Don't confuse the issue with history and logic. If you resort to such sinful devices, you are damned. Definition of fact: if it says so in the link and books I provide you, then and only then is it a fact. How do I know it's fact? "cause the bible tells me so...".

Sorry. I'll pass on believing in your god--the one you tell me will fry me if I use the brain and faculties (s)he provided me.

Martha, I do appreciate your warning and realize there is wisdom in it. Although I am not always tactful, sometimes sarcastic, and certainly outspoken, I harbour no ill-will to anyone on this forum. I certainly won't have my feelings hurt if someone tells me I'm full of sh** (it might even be true). I also realize that there are those here who genuinely believe they can save my soul (or at least theirs) by "witnessing" to the likes of me. I find it entertaining. But to be honest, to them I must say--you are wasting your time--it's been tried and has never worked. Everyone has the power to define what is God to them. Some choose to give that power away to others (e.g. ministers, or books). I do not. But if "witnessing" to the likes of me does something for you...go for it. Consider it my gift--gives you a chance to get heavenly brownie points. In the words of Jeff Jaisun (a sinful, irreverent folk singer)

"it's not what you believe in, it's how you get high. And if Jesus gets you higher, then give him a try"

And as I said before, I am perfectly willing to allow anyone to believe anything they want, without guilt-tripping them with fairy tales about hell or damnation.

 

[BUM]

This is one of my favorite topics

First, if I were to invent a religion, it would make perfect sense to come up with a few catchy rules such as:

1) This is the one true religion. All others are bogus.

2) Spread the word about (1).

3) If you don't believe me, fine. Burn in hell for all eternity.


Amen.

Way to go Wab we are almost there! You forgot:

4) Regularly contribute to the support of the Church (real estate, jewelry, autos, etc. are also accepted)

5) Your place in heaven will be decided based on your number of wives and children.



Now we gotta get on short wave radio, then cable tv. Busy, busy, busy doing Wab's God's work.

 

[Eagle43]

Courtesy of Milton Berle:

GOD calls the Pope on the phone. "I got some good news and some bad news. Which do you want first?"

Pope: "I'll take the good news."

GOD: "I've decided to make a one-world religion."

Pope: "Well, that's great. We Catholics have always believed it should be so. What's the bad news?"

GOD: "I'm calling you from Salt Lake City."

 

[SLC Tortfeasor]

Courtesy of Milton Berle:

GOD calls the Pope on the phone.  "I got some good news and some bad news.  Which do you want first?"

Pope:  "I'll take the good news."

GOD:  "I've decided to make a one-world religion."

Pope:  "Well, that's great.  We Catholics have always believed it should be so.  What's the bad news?"

GOD:  "I'm calling you from Salt Lake City."

 

  This is good stuff!

Way to go Wab we are almost there! You forgot:

4) Regularly contribute to the support of the Church (real estate, jewelry, autos, etc. are also accepted)

5) Your place in heaven will be decided based on your number of wives and children.

I've got at least one more:

6) Everything significant happens for a reason.  When good things happen, it's because you prayed and/or God was looking out for you and/or "miracles really do happen."  When bad things happen, it's because God was angry and/or "the Lord works in mysterious ways." 

 

[Michael]

...I harbour no ill-will to anyone on this forum.

Same here. I peaceably express my opinion, and you express yours. Then we are both free to accept or reject whatever we want to. That is how things are done in the United States. Free speech. I like this country.

 

[RockMiner]

I think that christian style faith offers some real benefits to those that embrace it...unfortunately I have too many problems with the logic.

Why should the supreme being of the universe be anything but indifferent to the antics of our species?

I might be interested or amused by some of the things my cat does, but I certainly would not condenm it to hell if it refused to accept my authority. That would be pointless and cruel. I would like to think that a god would also get over the fact that I might doubt his existence!

Everyone believes what they must.

 

[greg]

I think that christian style faith offers some real benefits to those that embrace it...unfortunately I have too many problems with the logic.

Why should the supreme being of the universe be anything but indifferent to the antics of our species?

I might be interested or amused by some of the things my cat does, but I certainly would not condenm it to hell if it refused to accept my authority. That would be pointless and cruel. I would like to think that a god would also get over the fact that I might doubt his existence!

Everyone believes what they must.

R*K--I know God is real. I have a religious friend that I argue with occasion. It makes him feel wonderful that he can be so tolerant of "infidels." I always catch him in the easy little inconsistencies such as 'Thou shalt not kill" and his belief that W's plan in Iraq is good and, somehow, the killing is irrelevant . His thought is that these sorts of things because they come directly from the Bible and God can't be inconsisitent: "God can't be a hypocrite, I have received the revealed word of God, therefore I can't be a hypocrite."

My response usually is 'perhaps your understanding of a perfect god is lacking, and in that mild lack of comprehension, inconsistency arises." For the liberal scientist, anomolies and inconsistencies are the food of greater comprehension--they give rise to more comprehensive glimpses of reality. Einstein's earlier theories resolved many earlier inconsistencies. He said "God does not play dice with the universe." I agree. Someday, perhaps, we will find a unified theory that includes and explains more of the inconsistencies.

As for my religious friend, I am not a perfect person nor attempt to appear like one, so I pat him on the head and smile--most of the time.

--Greg

--Greg

 

[greg]

OK, now that I'm here too, I think everyone on this thread now needs to drink the Kool Aid Ensure.

--Greg

 

[Michael]

...refused to accept my authority.

I will give you my understanding of the situation, which you are free to disagree with if you so choose.

You might be quite tolerant of many of your cat's actions, but you would not long allow it to stay in your house if it made a habit of attacking your children.  The command of Lord Jesus is to love His people.  Those who agree to turn away from harming His people, and love them instead, will live.  Those who reject Lord Jesus's command to love His people will feel the wrath of an angry God.  He loves His children, and no one will be allowed to harm them forever.

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:34 KJV

Do note that the command is to love His people as He loves them.  This is a very high standard.  Imperfect love that sometimes helps and sometimes hurts simply will not do.  Only Lord Jesus can transform a person's heart to meet this Divine standard, if the person asks Him to.

 

[Cal]

I will give you my understanding of the situation, which you are free to disagree with if you so choose.

You might be quite tolerant of many of your cat's actions, but you would not long allow it to stay in your house if it made a habit of attacking your children.  The command of Lord Jesus is to love His people.  Those who agree to turn away from harming His people, and love them instead, will live.  Those who reject Lord Jesus's command to love His people will feel the wrath of an angry God.  He loves His children, and no one will be allowed to harm them forever.

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:34 KJV

Do note that the command is to love His people as He loves them.  This is a very high standard.  Imperfect love that sometimes helps and sometimes hurts simply will not do.  Only Lord Jesus can transform a person's heart to meet this Divine standard, if the person asks Him to.

It was my understanding that judgment was the Lord's responsibility not man's.

Who amongst us is qualified to look into the mind and soul of another and know them? You live your life as you believe God would have you live it. And I live mine. Who are you to say my way is wrong?

 

[Michael]

I am certainly not your judge. It is the Bible that proclaims that all men need someone to save them from their sins. That most assuredly includes me. I am not better than any other mortal:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:23 KJV

I was not making any references to your personal life style. I don't even know you.

 

[bosco]

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

or I'll fry your heathen @sses.....but that's just my way of showing love


Reminds me of the po'd husband who beats his wife because he "cares about her so much"....

interesting god you have there, Michael, one that is modeled on a preadoloscent emotional state

 

[bosco]

Einstein's earlier theories resolved many earlier inconsistencies. He said "God does not play dice with the universe." I agree. Someday, perhaps, we will find a unified theory that includes and explains more of the inconsistencies.

--Greg

Interestingly enough, Einstein uttered his famous quote about not playing dice with the world because he couldn't believe or accept the notion of quantum theory, which states that at the most basic level, events (on a subnuclear level) are random and that randomness is not the result of lack of information or understanding but the very nature of things at their most fundamental level

It was precisely this inability to accept the new theory in his later years which left Einstein in the dust as far as the leading of of theoretical physics was concerned. His laws of special and general relativity certainly stand as monumental achievements of explaining the world on the macro level. But when things progressed down to a smaller scale, he seemed incapable of making the transition, in no small part because he allowed his theological beliefs to restrict his thinking.

Yes, there may be a unified field theory, and it may explain inconsistencies. But afaik, no one expects, or is even attempting, to find a unified field theory that replaces quantum theory, rather one that reconciles the various theories with each other. It is very much a cornerstone of modern physics that subnuclear events are random (that's right....not even god can predict them). They are random because that is their nature, not because we haven't yet figured everything out. Of course, maybe someone will come along with a new paradigm altogether....

 

[Cal]

I was not making any references to your personal life style.  I don't even know you.

I appreciate what you are saying and I was speaking of a more general "you" - being religious sorts - judging the general "you" - non-religious sorts. I find it odd that that religious sorts have in their own religion the concept that they are not judges - just God is judge - yet they have no problem legislating (restricting, judging) my behaviour.

There are things that a civilized society agrees on in order to live in peace with one another. Just because I agree that murder is wrong and shouldn't be allowed, doesn't mean that I believe so because your bible says its wrong.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I appreciate what you are saying and I was speaking of a more general "you" - being religious sorts - judging the general "you" - non-religious sorts. I find it odd that that religious sorts have in their own religion the concept that they are not judges - just God is judge - yet they have no problem legislating (restricting, judging) my behaviour.

There are things that a civilized society agrees on in order to live in peace with one another. Just because I agree that murder is wrong and shouldn't be allowed, doesn't mean that I believe so because your bible says its wrong.

Not sure what this means but here goes. I am not religious at all
(agnostic) but I support a lot of Christian ideas. For example, my oldest
daughter and husband (very conservative Christians) have stuck with me and supported me 100%
through all trials and tribulations (a lot). My other 2 kids are on-again
off-again, and tend to favor their Mom (my ex) quite a bit. OTOH, I was
the dumper and not the dumpee, so there is a sympathy factor.
Point being, I have benefited a lot by the religious beliefs of my oldest
daughter and her husband even though I don't share them.

JG

 

[Cal]

Point being, I have benefited a lot by the religious beliefs of my oldest
daughter and her husband even though I don't share them. 

JG

This has been true for me as well. I have met many very kind and caring Christians and had some that took real good care of me when I most needed it. It's them that I try to think about before I go off on some anti-Christian tirade and remind myself that all Christians are not the same.

It's the ones (whether Christian or Muslim or Shinto or whatever) that think they got it all figured out and that I should be in lock step with them and their beliefs that drive me up a wall.

I don't care what religion you are - but your right to practice your religion ends when it infringes on my right to be separate from it. Don't try to convert me. Don't try to "save" me. I don't want to be "saved". Just do your thing and I'll do mine.

 

[RockMiner]

I forget who said it, but there seem to be two kinds of people:

Those who don't know, and

Those who don't know they don't know...

I'd rather be the first kind   

 

[bosco]

but your right to practice your religion ends when it infringes on my right to be separate from it. Don't try to convert me. Don't try to "save" me. I don't want to be "saved". Just do your thing and I'll do mine.

this is a concept very foreign to fundamentalists. They actually believe that they have a responsibility to "witness" to you. That's what's so insidious about it.

If you think about it, it's actually a very selfish stance. I have this belief that somehow I get divinely rewarded by hassling you and proselytizing you, whether you like it or not. So I am going to continue to pester you because it gets ME ahead in my version of the divine scheme of things.

You won't get them to stop using logic, concepts of social responsibility, or anything like that. They have a need to see the world in total black and white, and you are just a black (non-christian) or white (christian, preferably of their sect) prop in their holy quest. And they don't have to take responsibility because it's "in the bible." Neat.

I wish it were so simple as live and let live, but as can be easily seen, it is not. These people now have political control, at least in the US. The fun is just starting. Through "faith-based" initiatives, they are now allowing churches to feed at the public funding trough.

In all fairness, I think an internet forum is a perfectly acceptable place for zealots to "preach the gospel". We all have the capability to turn off our computers and go somewhere else, so no harm done. I've enjoyed this discussion. It's when they knock on your door or telephone that I get unhappy, probably because that's much more invasive.

 

[Dreamer]

My God is the same God as Michael's God. I am a Christian and I worry that I am not good enough alot of the time. I try to be a good Christian, but I sin alot of the time. I am not perfect and I don't have it all figured out. But I also know that God loves me and he does have it under control.

Don't think that all Christians vote Republican. I voted Democrat for the first time, do to Iraq. Christians are all different! Please don't lump us all together.

Dreamer

 

[BristolBane]

Don't think that all Christians vote Republican. I voted Democrat for the first time, do to Iraq. Christians are all different! Please don't lump us all together.

Hear hear. The stereotyping in this thread is really aggravating.

This thread should have been locked a long time ago.

 

[greg]

Bosco--

"It is very much a cornerstone of modern physics that subnuclear events are random (that's right....not even god can predict them)"
--Bosco



It is still here where we are having our Hiesenberg (sp?) moment. It is where Einstein and modern physics separated. I'm with Einstein--quantum events are not random, even though all the evidence appears to point in that direction at this time. To my mind, a unified field theory would, as you say, only bind the micro with the macro. But I believe that if done 'well' (correctly) a unified field theory would also establish first cause (plus refute Hume) Of course, Einstein would laugh at my pidgin science skills. In conclusion, I'm on Michael's side.

--Greg