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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 10:37 AM   #41
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

or I'll fry your heathen @sses.....but that's just my way of showing love


Reminds me of the po'd husband who beats his wife because he "cares about her so much"....

interesting god you have there, Michael, one that is modeled on a preadoloscent emotional state
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 10:48 AM   #42
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
Einstein's earlier theories resolved many earlier inconsistencies. He said "God does not play dice with the universe." I agree. Someday, perhaps, we will find a unified theory that includes and explains more of the inconsistencies.

--Greg
Interestingly enough, Einstein uttered his famous quote about not playing dice with the world because he couldn't believe or accept the notion of quantum theory, which states that at the most basic level, events (on a subnuclear level) are random and that randomness is not the result of lack of information or understanding but the very nature of things at their most fundamental level

It was precisely this inability to accept the new theory in his later years which left Einstein in the dust as far as the leading of of theoretical physics was concerned. His laws of special and general relativity certainly stand as monumental achievements of explaining the world on the macro level. But when things progressed down to a smaller scale, he seemed incapable of making the transition, in no small part because he allowed his theological beliefs to restrict his thinking.

Yes, there may be a unified field theory, and it may explain inconsistencies. But afaik, no one expects, or is even attempting, to find a unified field theory that replaces quantum theory, rather one that reconciles the various theories with each other. It is very much a cornerstone of modern physics that subnuclear events are random (that's right....not even god can predict them). They are random because that is their nature, not because we haven't yet figured everything out. Of course, maybe someone will come along with a new paradigm altogether....
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 11:16 AM   #43
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael

I was not making any references to your personal life style.* I don't even know you.
I appreciate what you are saying and I was speaking of a more general "you" - being religious sorts - judging the general "you" - non-religious sorts. I find it odd that that religious sorts have in their own religion the concept that they are not judges - just God is judge - yet they have no problem legislating (restricting, judging) my behaviour.

There are things that a civilized society agrees on in order to live in peace with one another. Just because I agree that murder is wrong and shouldn't be allowed, doesn't mean that I believe so because your bible says its wrong.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 11:57 AM   #44
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
I appreciate what you are saying and I was speaking of a more general "you" - being religious sorts - judging the general "you" - non-religious sorts. I find it odd that that religious sorts have in their own religion the concept that they are not judges - just God is judge - yet they have no problem legislating (restricting, judging) my behaviour.

There are things that a civilized society agrees on in order to live in peace with one another. Just because I agree that murder is wrong and shouldn't be allowed, doesn't mean that I believe so because your bible says its wrong.
Not sure what this means but here goes. I am not religious at all
(agnostic) but I support a lot of Christian ideas. For example, my oldest
daughter and husband (very conservative Christians) have stuck with me and supported me 100%
through all trials and tribulations (a lot). My other 2 kids are on-again
off-again, and tend to favor their Mom (my ex) quite a bit. OTOH, I was
the dumper and not the dumpee, so there is a sympathy factor.
Point being, I have benefited a lot by the religious beliefs of my oldest
daughter and her husband even though I don't share them.

JG
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 12:43 PM   #45
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Point being, I have benefited a lot by the religious beliefs of my oldest
daughter and her husband even though I don't share them.*

JG
This has been true for me as well. I have met many very kind and caring Christians and had some that took real good care of me when I most needed it. It's them that I try to think about before I go off on some anti-Christian tirade and remind myself that all Christians are not the same.

It's the ones (whether Christian or Muslim or Shinto or whatever) that think they got it all figured out and that I should be in lock step with them and their beliefs that drive me up a wall.

I don't care what religion you are - but your right to practice your religion ends when it infringes on my right to be separate from it. Don't try to convert me. Don't try to "save" me. I don't want to be "saved". Just do your thing and I'll do mine.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 01:55 PM   #46
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

I forget who said it, but there seem to be two kinds of people:

Those who don't know, and

Those who don't know they don't know...

I'd rather be the first kind* *
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 03:39 PM   #47
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
but your right to practice your religion ends when it infringes on my right to be separate from it. Don't try to convert me. Don't try to "save" me. I don't want to be "saved". Just do your thing and I'll do mine.
this is a concept very foreign to fundamentalists. They actually believe that they have a responsibility to "witness" to you. That's what's so insidious about it.

If you think about it, it's actually a very selfish stance. I have this belief that somehow I get divinely rewarded by hassling you and proselytizing you, whether you like it or not. So I am going to continue to pester you because it gets ME ahead in my version of the divine scheme of things.

You won't get them to stop using logic, concepts of social responsibility, or anything like that. They have a need to see the world in total black and white, and you are just a black (non-christian) or white (christian, preferably of their sect) prop in their holy quest. And they don't have to take responsibility because it's "in the bible." Neat.

I wish it were so simple as live and let live, but as can be easily seen, it is not. These people now have political control, at least in the US. The fun is just starting. Through "faith-based" initiatives, they are now allowing churches to feed at the public funding trough.

In all fairness, I think an internet forum is a perfectly acceptable place for zealots to "preach the gospel". We all have the capability to turn off our computers and go somewhere else, so no harm done. I've enjoyed this discussion. It's when they knock on your door or telephone that I get unhappy, probably because that's much more invasive.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 05:49 PM   #48
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

My God is the same God as Michael's God. I am a Christian and I worry that I am not good enough alot of the time. I try to be a good Christian, but I sin alot of the time. I am not perfect and I don't have it all figured out. But I also know that God loves me and he does have it under control.

Don't think that all Christians vote Republican. I voted Democrat for the first time, do to Iraq. Christians are all different! Please don't lump us all together.

Dreamer
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 06:25 PM   #49
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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Originally Posted by Dreamer
Don't think that all Christians vote Republican. I voted Democrat for the first time, do to Iraq. Christians are all different! Please don't lump us all together.
Hear hear. The stereotyping in this thread is really aggravating.

This thread should have been locked a long time ago.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 08:42 PM   #50
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Bosco--

"It is very much a cornerstone of modern physics that subnuclear events are random (that's right....not even god can predict them)"
--Bosco



It is still here where we are having our Hiesenberg (sp?) moment. It is where Einstein and modern physics separated. I'm with Einstein--quantum events are not random, even though all the evidence appears to point in that direction at this time. To my mind, a unified field theory would, as you say, only bind the micro with the macro. But I believe that if done 'well' (correctly) a unified field theory would also establish first cause (plus refute Hume) Of course, Einstein would laugh at my pidgin science skills. In conclusion, I'm on Michael's side.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 09:22 PM   #51
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

True Christians believe that faith in Jesus is what gets us to
heaven ..... it is not all about what we do. Most of us are really
interested in passing the spark on to others out of love and concern.

As for me, I am very careful to only talk to those I sense are
seeking something outside themselves and I would never push
my views on someone who is not ready.

I respect all religions that teach their followers to be decent
human beings and I will let God sort out those who go to heaven.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 09:32 PM   #52
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
True Christians believe that faith in Jesus is what gets us to
heaven ..... it is not all about what we do.* *Most of us are really
interested in passing the spark on to others out of love and concern.

As for me, I am very careful to only talk to those I sense are
seeking something outside themselves and I would never push
my views on someone who is not ready.* *

I respect all religions that teach their followers to be decent
human beings and I will let God sort out those who go to heaven.

Cheers,

Charlie
I just watched a movie that put forth the idea that God might be just
like a kid with an ant farm. Could be.

JG
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 09:35 PM   #53
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
I respect all religions that teach their followers to be decent
human beings and I will let God sort out those who go to heaven.
Quote:
There is only one God and He is God to all;
therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God.
I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu,
a Muslim become a better Muslim,
a Catholic become a better Catholic. Mother Teresa
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-13-2005, 09:55 PM   #54
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

JG, every hair on you head is numbered ..... that is if you have any
left.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 12:03 AM   #55
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON
I'm with Einstein--quantum events are not random, even though all the evidence appears to point in that direction at this time. <snip>

But I believe that if done 'well' (correctly) a unified field theory would also establish first cause (plus refute Hume)
--Greg
Greg, you truly appear to be a man of faith. I don't think that is a bad thing.

I can't claim to understand all the nuances of modern theoretical physics. I'd like to think that I could if I had the time to spend pursuing it. But that appears to be an article of faith on my part.

I find the notion of determinism emotionally repugnant, and therefore reject it. Let the nuclei decay in true random fashion!!! If they happen to hit a neuron or two in my brain, then none of us knows what I might do next. Hmmm....maybe I'm not that different from anyone else....my belief system seems to be based on my emotional disposition, as you have just admitted that yours is and as seems to be the case of most of the posters in this thread. The difference is that we both admit this, rather than looking to an abstract super-authority to bolster our all-too-human human.

"sometimes God, you just don't come through. Do you need a woman to look after you?" --Tori Amos
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 12:09 AM   #56
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
to bolster our all-too-human human.
I meant all-too-human opinions. Guess I'm not perfect yet. nuts.
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 04:28 AM   #57
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
Greg, you truly appear to be a man of faith.* I don't think that is a bad thing.

I can't claim to understand all the nuances of modern theoretical physics.* I'd like to think that I could if I had the time to spend pursuing it.* But that appears to be an article of faith on my part.

I find the notion of determinism emotionally repugnant, and therefore reject it.* Let the nuclei decay in true random fashion!!!* If they happen to hit a neuron or two in my brain, then none of us knows what I might do next.* Hmmm....maybe I'm not that different from anyone else....my belief system seems to be based on my emotional disposition, as you have just admitted that yours is and as seems to be the case of most of the posters in this thread.* The difference is that we both admit this, rather than looking to an abstract super-authority to bolster our all-too-human human.

"sometimes God, you just don't come through.* Do you need a woman to look after you?"* *--Tori Amos
If there is a God, he must be quite fond of irony.

JG
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 04:45 AM   #58
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
JG, every hair on you head is numbered ..... that is if you have any
left.* *

Cheers,

Charlie
Well, if DW ever gets around to taking my pic posting so I can send it in,
y'all can judge for yourselves

JG
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 11:45 AM   #59
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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If there is a God, he must be quite fond of irony.

JG
No you're wrong again JG. IMO, God is not necessarily fond of irony; he/she is fond of well thought out solutions and correctly executed activities (these are the things that bring us, humans, real cognitive happiness). Humans are often fond of irony due to their ignorance of solutions. In fact, we create our own conundrums (see Bush).

At the same time it amuses me to no end that while everyone worries about how to find God in their religions, scientists are busily approaching the threshold of heaven in their study of quantum mechanics, field theories, and their unification. IMO.

I have a similar problem in the financial world: While I'm busily worrying about where the housing bubble axe will fall, the rising oil prices may be the instagating event. I keep looking for solutions inside and outside the conundrums. Information overload.

--Greg
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...
Old 08-14-2005, 12:34 PM   #60
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Re: My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

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I find the notion of determinism emotionally repugnant, and therefore reject it. Let the nuclei decay in true random fashion!!!
Ahh, yes! It always boils down to that important phrase "It depends on what the meaning of is is."

--Greg
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