My God, Your God, or No God...Oh, God...

[greg]

Knock yourself out..

REW

Thanks, I'll saunter over there.

--Greg

 

[Michael]

What language was this "written word and its demonstrated accuracy" written in?

The 22nd Psalm, along with most of the Old Testament, was written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written mostly in Greek. There are various scholarly resources available so that an interested person can verify for himself the veracity of the translations.

 

[bpp]

What do you think? Do kids need the idea of heaven?

My wife and I are both atheists, though we do appreciate the role of ceremony and will usually drop by a Buddhist temple or Shinto shrine at New Year's, for example.

When our daughter asks about death, I tend to say that it is like sleeping forever with no dreams, and one can't talk or do anything or play with anyone ever again. This is mostly when trying to impress on her that doing something is dangerous, could result in death, and that it is something to be avoided.

When that's too harsh a message, such as when a loved one or pet dies, then my wife is apt to say that one will be reborn some day or become one of the gods (the Buddhist and Shinto influences, respectively, I suppose). I'll go along with this, figuring we can sort it out later (or better yet, let our daughter sort it out for herself), or else say something about the substance of our bodies going back into the world to become part of new living things (the "Circle of Life" stuff from "The Lion King" is a handy reference in this regard). I was not raised Christian (my parents were themselves hard-fallen Catholics, and raised us pretty strictly atheistically), and it has never occurred to me to try the heaven thing. I'm not sure I'd even feel qualified to use Christian cosmological trappings if I wanted to.

So we've not found the idea of heaven necessary so far for our kid, though I have to admit that it is handy having some culturally-accepted alternatives available, like reincarnation, which can kind of be shaded into my atheistic recycling beliefs.

Bpp

 

[jefipius]

The written word and its demonstrated accuracy.

Consider, for example, Psalm 22.  It was written about 800 to 900 years before the Romans invented crucifixion. Yet, it detailed and explained what happened on the cross.

Have fun.

John Walter Russell

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm

Where does it unambiguously refer to a crucifixion? It refers to suffering does echo some of the phraseology ("Eloi, Eloi,...), but remember that the writers of the New Testament would have been schooled in the Old Testament and intimately familiar with the Psalms.

 

[greg]

REW--I know we havew a fight to start, but too many (seemingly) random events have occured for me to settle and think. So I must wait.

But I will throw the gauntlet down formally:

I was originally upset about your behavior: You said "I'll prey for you." The inference I drew from that is the possibility of you killing me, tearing the flesh from my bones and then eating me. Not a pleasant experience. Whereas I was thinking about a church for you to attend.

I now stand at the ready to smite you!!!!!! !

So at this time I would like to inform you that it is time to amend one of my statements. I believe I said that 'I could prattle on about this stuff untill I dropped dead." I would like to add "but probably longer" at this time. Consider yourself warned.

--Greg

 

[greg]

REW--I know we havew a fight to start, but too many (seemingly) random events have occured for me to settle and think. So I must wait.

But I will throw the gauntlet down formally:

I was originally upset about your behavior: You said "I'll prey for you." The inference I drew from that is the possibility of you killing me, tearing the flesh from my bones and then eating me. Not a pleasant experience. Whereas I was thinking about a church for you to attend.

I now stand at the ready to smite you!!!!!! !

So at this time I would like to inform you that it is time to amend one of my statements. I believe I said that 'I could prattle on about this stuff untill I dropped dead." I would like to add "but probably longer" at this time. Consider yourself warned.

--Greg

 

[REWahoo]

REW--I know we havew a fight to start, but too many (seemingly) random events have occured for me to settle and think. So I must wait.

But I will throw the gauntlet down formally:

I was originally upset about your behavior: You said "I'll prey for you." The inference I drew from that is the possibility of you killing me, tearing the flesh from my bones and then eating me. Not a pleasant experience. Whereas I was thinking about a church for you to attend.

I now stand at the ready to smite you!!!!!! !

So at this time I would like to inform you that it is time to amend one of my statements. I believe I said that 'I could prattle on about this stuff untill I dropped dead." I would like to add "but probably longer" at this time. Consider yourself warned.

--Greg

I have prepared a re-smite to your imprudent gauntlet throwing. (BTW, you should consider some formal lessons as you missed rather badly.) But under the circumstances I will keep my powder dry and wait for the appropriate time to retaliate respond.

REW

 

[unclemick]

Smite, prey, pray, toss the gauntlet - no news from the dougnut shop sex, politics and religon wise - just bitching about the heat - 88 degrees at 8 this morning - don't even mention the humidity. A couple got nicked by kids and grandkids - $ wise for back to school. A little reminising about housing, etc back in the 70's around Annapolis and Baltimore subs - Towsend, Middle River, etc.

Only one jelly filled this morning.

So smite on dudes - it's waaay to hot down here already.

A/C and perhaps a little dip in Lake Ponchartrain later.

 

[greg]

just bitching about the heat - 88 degrees at 8 this morning - don't even mention the humidity. - it's waaay too hot down here already.

A/C and perhaps a little dip in Lake Ponchartrain later.

The DW and visited New Orleans for a week a few years ago. Spent most of our time in The French Quarter. We often got some real 'wiffs" while walking around. Now, whenever I smell somthing similar, I tell the wife "It sure smells like France around here." Enjoy your 'partial bit' of foriegn travel; may I suggest a visit to the septic for a serious trip adventure? Unless you've been there, done that. Then just stay home and worry about the Saints.

--Greg

 

[greg]

I have prepared a re-smite to your imprudent gauntlet throwing. (BTW, you should consider some formal lessons as you missed rather badly.) But under the circumstances I will keep my powder dry and wait for the appropriate time to retaliate respond.

REW

You're right. I'm sorry.

--Greg

 

[greg]

REW:

I am back, and I shall smite THEE.

First, I would like to define intelligence so that we both start with a shared experience: To my mind, intelligence is simply a cognition or recognition of a pattern or non-pattern, some where and/or some time—in the space-time continuum. People with high IQs generally are able to discern these patterns easier, quicker, or in different locations. (Einstein was brilliant in even further clarifying this with the “everything is relative” comment.) If a multiple choice test is taken, the person who scores the highest sees more predetermined (by the test maker) patterns than the ‘less smart’ ones. We have recognized something and quantified it--often with an IQ number. Then this second phenomenon, the recognition by the pattern maker of the fully determined pattern expressed by the test taker is or can be checked for patterns, e.g. the test, the testee, and the tester are held up to be examined by test studiers to see if correct correlations exist. Sometimes it feels like it will never end. The results are usually published. Thank god the people involved can retire at some point and start to really enjoy themselves.

Something random, to my mind, is an event that has no discernable pattern to the observer: We don’t know where it came from or when it might occur. I will assume for the moment that all such events are in the real, physical world. But please keep me informed of whether or not we are in the physical, material world or in some other world at various points in your rebuttal. This would be appreciated.

At this jucture tell me if you concur or disconcur, please. If you disconcur, how and/or why so?

I hope we will both agree at some future point that randomness is the true opposite of intelligence—and that it is not an entity commonly called stupidity that has a real existence. Ultimately, the universe is not a dualistic phenomenon, IMO. If you concur, you save a huuuuge amount of prattle. So, you see, there is an immediate reward for agreeing with me. I recommend concurance. Otherwise, the real smiting will continue; the process is the smite.

Your friend,

Greg

 

[REWahoo]

Greg, where do I start...

Firstly, you are repeatedly repeating yourself, or at least your posts. Not sure if it is random or intelligent, but it is redundant and wasteful of scarce internet resources.

After reading (and re-reading) your posts, I have a question. Man, what the heck are you talkin' about? You do prattle on, don't you. Poor Martha.

Oh yes, if your ego needs it, you have my permission to consider me thoroughly smitten smited smit (select the one you prefer...at random ).

REW

 

[wabmester]

To my mind, intelligence is simply a cognition or recognition of a pattern or non-pattern....

I guess that would make Technical Analysts the smartest people in the world. They see patterns even when there are none.

Anyway, I think I see where you're going with this. Structure implies intelligence at work. But entropy is always increasing in the universe. We only have a few local instances of structure overcoming randomness. As time goes on, fewer and fewer patterns exist. So, I guess this means that God was around for the Big Bang, but then he died. And someday the universe will be completely random.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

The DW and visited New Orleans for a week a few years ago.  Spent most of our time in The French Quarter.  We often got some real 'wiffs" while walking around.  Now, whenever I smell somthing similar, I tell the wife "It sure smells like France around here."  Enjoy your 'partial bit' of foriegn travel; may I suggest a visit to the septic for a serious trip adventure?      Unless you've been there, done that.  Then just stay home and worry about the Saints.

--Greg

I have been to the "Big Easy" only once, with my first wife, about 1995.
I left the car in the hotel lot (Hilton? Sheraton?) for the whole time. Anyway, after we
left, I noticed all of our CDs were missing. When we got home I contacted
the hotel and they gave me $ for my loss, plus credits for future
lodging. I was satisfied. Then , about 2 weeks later, I opened a drawer
in our kitchen and Shazamm!.............there were the missing CDs.
We stayed in N.O. for several days but this remains my most vivid memory.

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

 And someday the universe will be completely random.

What do you mean......."someday" ?

JG

 

[wabmester]

What do you mean......."someday"  ?

Yeah, I know you meant this as biting sarcastic social commentary (or something), but that's an interesting question.   When will the universe die?  Google didn't tell me the answer and I'm too stupid to calculate it myself.   It used to be thought that the end-point of ever-increasing entropy was "heat death" in which the universe becomes a homogenous distribution of matter at some equilibrium temperature.   But gravity (and black holes) and the expansion of the universe complicate that picture.   I guess the end-point is one big black hole.   It's a LONG ways off, though.

 

[unclemick]

Ah yes 2-3 day old 'erster shells' in the heat - before da garbage man comes - tweaks up the nostrils.

Camps used to put them in driveways and parking areas - took about a year to 'season' and the smell to dimish - give or take.

Toss in a few more varieties of seafood - a little heat, a little humidity - hmmmm.

Fresh out of college - one of the Boeing plant parking lots would catch the stockyard smell in summer. I remember Stan (from Iowa) walking in with me one day - "Ah, The smell of money."

 

[unclemick]

Herb Caen - was he around in the 60's when I read the Portland and Seattle papers?

Name rings a little bell - not a big one - my memory being what it is.

 

[greg]

Wab-- Yes. To my knowledge entropy is a concept that defines the process of the breakdown of matter, both inorganic and organic. Things break down from a higher order of complexity to a lower order of complexity. For example, grass, after it's cut, slowly decays into a sort of brown substance that we call compost. Entropy, in general, captures that process that exist in the world. The word entropy captures a specific pattern that exists in the universe, the degeneration of matter. Does this pattern exist in nature? Most people would agree that it does because it has been verified by scientific method and groups of people as repeatable, having a cause, etc., etc.

At some point in time, one person discovered this pattern, thought about it, talked about it with others, etc.--until it was generally accepted by the majority of the population. Before that, people didn't know, didn't examine or see it as science or a pattern with a specific series of steps included in that de-generation. They just called rot or rotten. Or they said it was magic. Or they thought it was just something created by God that wasn't necessarily his most interesting or important sub-creation. But even here, I suspect people saw patterns: The rot didn't start until someone cut the grass or fall arrived. People have always looked for patterns and then tried to explain them.

REW: I'll prattle less. I'll do a much better job with 'random.' Seriously.

--Greg

 

[wabmester]

To my knowledge entropy is a concept that defines the process of the breakdown of matter, both inorganic and organic.

Not exactly. It's more about energy states than states of matter. Plants don't decompose due to increasing entropy -- that's actually an active process aided by hungry bacteria.

Here's a little entropy primer and history if you're interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

 

[kayelem]

Was thinking earlier today, noticing Charlie's departure (sad), that there was no way I'd get sucked into this thread!

However, Herb Caen reference did it.

My parents are SF natives and so somehow I knew about him. Then I lived in the bay area in the late 80's, early 90's and got to be a fan myself.

Took them back to SF for their 50th anniversary and if I had thought about it I should have bought them a book of his columns. I am sure there is one out there.

Thanks for the quote and memories!

 

[Michael]

Structure implies intelligence at work. But entropy is always increasing in the universe.

One possible conclusion is that the universe we currently live in is not meant to be our home forever. If our true home is elsewhere, there is no need to maintain order here indefinitely.

 

[Danny]

Herb Caen...visited the University near our home for a lecture about 20 years ago. When he got back and wrote his column, he stated that town is the type of town that carries Velveeta Cheese in the gourmet section at the markets.
The Chamber and a lot of locals were pretty upset, and it was a long running feud (actually, a good natured feud for a long time.
About a year before he died, he wrote another column, and said he had paid another visit to the University town, and by golly, they have the Velveeta Cheese exactly where it's suppossed to be.
I really miss his column.

You're talking about Chico (Velveeta capital of the World) aren't you ....Boy he got alot of mileage out of that. His column and Charles McCabe's were the first ones I read every morning. I miss reading him also. There is an excruciatingly bad columnist here in the Twin Cities that makes me realize how good he was...

 

[greg]

Thank you, wab. I read some of the article. I could say perhaps that I re-cognized it from thirty years ago. Maybe the memory had just deteriorated in my mind over time as my energy level for new knowlege decreased. That tricky 2nd law.

REW: You deserved better from me. I reverted to Kantian-speak or Hegelese, which doesn't accomplish much--anywhere.

One year in college I independently read three books over the course of the school year. The first was Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. It took about four months to get thru some of it. I would read things like 'The thing-in-itself when operating outside its self for other is oftentimes not without . . . .' until they made sense. Or I would get up and pace, worried about the consequences or whether it changed the meaning of the previous sentence. Then I'd sit down and reread it to verify my thoughts. I would wake up from nightmares later in the evening, worried that these things had moved from there proper position inside whereever that was. I am not making this stuff up. I worked very hard at it. Hey, all the big time philosophers thought Kant was great. I also learned a new language. Hegel was really fun, The Phenomenology of Mind. Hundreds of hours involved in two book, maybe even more time.

--Greg

 

[wabmester]

One possible conclusion is that the universe we currently live in is not meant to be our home forever.  If our true home is elsewhere, there is no need to maintain order here indefinitely.

Occam's Razor:

one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything