My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas If I were you, I wouldn't give her the money for the sake of your family's safety. I was a detective in Chinatown and Little Saigon and I know how gambling debts are settled when the gamblers can't pay. You don't want to be identified either in her mind, or the minds of the collectors, as a possible source of funds.

This is certainly a concern of mine. So far the general consensus is that physical threats are a low probability. Hopefully failure to pay will result in shunning and excommunication (by those worthless lowlifes that aren't worth worrying about anyway).

The Asian community here isn't very large, but I know a lot of them have less than noble values and morals. Mostly just playing fast and loose with taxes, insurance fraud, under the table deals, etc. As far as I know, most of the hard core gangs aren't active in the community here. It is nothing like what DW's cousins experience in Long Beach, California. Definitely a different story there.

If any money is provided to SIL, protective measures will be put in place to conceal the source of funds. The last thing I want is some gangstas on my front steps.

[NW-Bound]

I am also with the unanimous view that you should not give any money to SIL, leave alone taking a HELOC on your own house.

It's time she gets some tough sh*t love, not more money! What she deserves is some spanking caning (administered by her family, not you ).

[easysurfer]

Fuego, I think you need to find a way to convince DW (you metioned that she has like 60% say in the matter), that it's not in both of your best interests to bail out her sister. I know that won't be easy, but if you can, then DW can say to SIL, "DH just won't allow it". End of conversation -- hopefully

I'm not married, so I might be making it seem easier said than done, but I've seen it so many times, an accepted answer is "DS (dear spouse) decides against it" and the answer is finalized. You have to get to this point.

[DangerMouse]

If I read your posts right, said SIL was helping the ILs with their finances? If that is the case might be time to conduct an audit to see if she has been helping herself to the kitty.

To me the first step to be taken is she needs to be undergoing some kind of treatment. Hardcore gamblers can't just say I'm done and they are over it. It is an addiction. The second thing is the word needs to go out to those in the community that she has been gambling with that none of her debts are going to be paid for her so it is in their best interest to exclude her from any future games.

Good luck with your decision. I can't see any outcome that will make you a winner in this one.

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by easysurfer Fuego, I think you need to find a way to convince DW (you metioned that she has like 60% say in the matter), that it's not in both of your best interests to bail out her sister. I know that won't be easy, but if you can, then DW can say to SIL, "DH just won't allow it". End of conversation -- hopefully I'm not married, so I might be making it seem easier said than done, but I've seen it so many times, an accepted answer is "DS (dear spouse) decides against it" and the answer is finalized. You have to get to this point.

This may be the approach we end up taking. I have offered to be "the bad guy" and say "no", and then DW can say, "we make financial decisions of this magnitude jointly, and I respect his decision in this matter. Unfortunately we cannot help you".

During the intervention we are going to determine to whom exactly all these debts are owed. Assuming it isn't to leg breakers, we will encourage defaulting, or making some token payment and stating that that is all she has (which is true).

More info has come out recently. Apparently she has approached others in the family about borrowing money, always with "this is a secret, no one else can know". She has also said "you can't tell my husband, he will divorce me", which is ironic because it is the lying, sneaking and gambling that is making the husband examine his continued role in the relationship. Their son's college account of $1000 was raided and is empty now (3 years away from college).

IF (a big if) we do lend any money, we will be making a number of conditions (too long to list here in full). And we will receive security interests on her currently unencumbered SUV (jointly titled), and a security interest on her gold jewelry by physically possessing it. In the event she defaults, we liquidate the jewelry first (goin to da pawn shop). Then take her car.

One hitch with the car is that it is jointly titled, so her husband would also have to sign over the title to us as lienholders. He has previously expressed he will not do so at this point, so that may be a deal breaker. Whatever the outcome, I doubt we will be making a loan for any amounts exceeding any security we will receive. Don't know if it is $1000 in gold or $10,000 or $20,000 or what.

And at this point, DW's mom (SIL's mom also) has agreed to put up 1/2 the amount needed without requiring any security interest in anything. Which has cut our potential loss to a much more reasonable (sarcasm) $10000 or so, less any security we might receive.

The problem with mom putting up the money is, they aren't exactly wealthy. They will have the typical American retirement - paid off house, smallish social security x2, and a low five figure savings account. This amount they will be "loaning" represents a significant portion of their savings.

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerMouse If I read your posts right, said SIL was helping the ILs with their finances? If that is the case might be time to conduct an audit to see if she has been helping herself to the kitty.

I think it might be the other way around. She would occasionally put in some of her own money to help pay her mom and dad's bills if they really needed help in one particular month. There is so much commingling though, it would take a lot of forensic accounting to figure this out. This episode will probably result in a change in who helps out the parents will making sure bills are paid correctly. Luckily the parents' house has not been constantly refinanced. I think they are 3-4 years from having the house paid off and only currently owe about 20% LTV on it.

[FUEGO]

I had not thought about it in this context, but when you add up all the other lines of credit and borrowing that SIL has done on top of the $23k debt, it may be $40k+ total (including the $23k). We will probably never know how much monthly income from working was diverted from her family's finances into gambling. The response was classic "Well, I win some and I lose some".

[Leonidas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO I had not thought about it in this context, but when you add up all the other lines of credit and borrowing that SIL has done on top of the $23k debt, it may be $40k+ total (including the $23k). We will probably never know how much monthly income from working was diverted from her family's finances into gambling. The response was classic "Well, I win some and I lose some".

Just further evidence of how addicts lie to everyone to keep getting their fix.

Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

You have a way with words...

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonidas Just further evidence of how addicts lie to everyone to keep getting their fix. Fuego, your sis-in-law is blazing brightly in the fire of self-destruction - don't toss your hard-earned money into the flames.

What if there is a strong possibility these people are leg-breakers or may retain the services of leg-breakers? What course of action should be followed to keep the leg breaking to a minimum? Particularly my legs, DW's legs and my kids' legs?

[easysurfer]

Fuego,

One more thought about during the intervention. In the Asian culture, honor and shame are valued. So, during the intervention, DW and you should be sure to mention how your SIL has shamed the family by being so irresponsible in getting to this point. I say that not to kick someone but this might actually help the SIL see the light and hit rock-bottom, if that is possible.

Easysurfer

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by easysurfer Fuego, One more thought about during the intervention. In the Asian culture, honor and shame are valued. So, during the intervention, DW and you should be sure to mention how your SIL has shamed the family by being so irresponsible in getting to this point. I say that not to kick someone but this might actually help the SIL see the light and hit rock-bottom, if that is possible. Easysurfer

I think that is what will happen. Either we explicitly tell her how embarrassing and damaging this all is for her family, or it will be obvious from how we describe the impacts of her actions on us.

I'm hoping "shame" will be very effective in keeping her out of card games. Shame will work like peer pressure from her family. And if she partially or fully defaults on her gambling debt, she will be shamed by those doing the gambling and lending because they will spread the word that she is untrustworthy. Which works out perfectly, since she won't be able to get credit from anyone to gamble more.

Her 3 kids (age 9-14) were informed yesterday by my DW that their mother is a gambling addict, and has wasted away all the family's money. The gambling SIL wanted to shield her kids from the ugly truth, but they already know in varying degrees that she spends a lot of time and money gambling.

[FUEGO]

Oh yeah, does anyone know the appropriate kind of food we should serve at an intervention? We are hosting it.

[audreyh1]

Cold water and coffee/tea? How to Host an Intervention | eHow.com

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 Cold water and coffee/tea? How to Host an Intervention | eHow.com

"Now we need to put away anything that is glass or can be thrown easily in the room we are using or the adjacent rooms. Remember an intervention can be a dangerous and violent thing to go through for everyone involved."

But seriously, I need to make sure we don't have any weapon-like objects sitting around. I think having ample boxes of tissues at hand will also be helpful. Not sure if this will be an angry drag out fight or a sad, crying event. Or both.

[Cattusbabe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO What if there is a strong possibility these people are leg-breakers or may retain the services of leg-breakers? What course of action should be followed to keep the leg breaking to a minimum? Particularly my legs, DW's legs and my kids' legs?

FUEGO. You are getting really good advice to not lend the money. I have been where you are.

Brother with a drug problem palling around with dealers. Said brother owed dealers money. He had smoked it up.....as usual. They made him a deal.....handed him a gun and took him with them to off some other dealer. It did not go down since the intended target was not there so the hit was rescheduled.

Dear brother shows up on my door scared and needing to get out of town...fast. I stowed his stuff in the garage gave him some money and he hid out until he could leave. That was 17 years ago. He did the rehab bit and had been clean up until this past year.

At the ripe old age of fifty he has slipped back into his old life. This time the story I get is that a bag of.."product" to the tune of $8K came up missing and the blame was put on him. They want their money. You know where this is going. We get the sob story about his being strong armed and his needing $450 that night or they are going to kill me. DH and I gave it to him feeling that we were protecting my parents from having to bury their son. We were had since he sold the same story to my parents and got $500 from them.

We had a family meeting only with out dear brother to compare notes and to come up with a plan as to what to do. In the interest of protecting ours dear brother had to go and was told that. We have no contact with him and have had to wrap our heads around the possibility of Philly PD showing up at our door to go to the ME to ID what is left of him.

We can live with that. What we could not live with is his nonsense and the possibility of his bringing thugs to our door so he had to go.

I would try to be a support to your B-I-L ie a sounding board but no more. Keep the lines of communication about what she is telling you and the rest of the family so that she cannot play each of you off against each other. If she goes down then she goes down and you have to wrap your head around that.

[Leonidas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO What if there is a strong possibility these people are leg-breakers or may retain the services of leg-breakers? What course of action should be followed to keep the leg breaking to a minimum? Particularly my legs, DW's legs and my kids' legs?

Don't get involved, make sure everybody knows you don't have the money (and if you did you wouldn't give it to her), and if you get approached by anyone you will call the cops and testify against everybody.

You might live in some small town where there is no organized crime, but the odds are really not in your favor. In the last 15-20 years we have gone way past Asian street gangs and OC in the Asian community is big league crime. Like every other immigrant group that came to this country, the Asians have brought along OC from their homelands. The Triads from HK, Taiwan and Macau; Big Circle Boys from China (via Canada to the US), even the freaking Yakuza.

The big boys came along and joined as partners with anybody that was too strong to take on, or killed anybody who didn't want to work for the new boss in town. We had a bloody war here in the mid-late 1990's that saw bodies on the ground every week.

If you could trust your sister in law to tell you the truth, but you know you can't, you might better be able to gauge if the game she is down with is really just a friendly little neighborhood thing, or part of something else. But it sounds like she is in for a hell of a lot more than the 23K she's tapping you for, and that doesn't sound like the girls hanging out at Mrs. Chen's house for a friendly game of Mahjong.

I could be wrong - I hope I'm wrong, but I've stayed alive by being an un-trusting and suspicious bastard for too long to start backing up now. The likelihood of the game being run by some OC types (even little small timers) either as owners or loan sharks is just too high in my mind to feel comfortable being anywhere near this woman. Even if it's really just dear, sweet, old Mrs. Chen - what happens if she doesn't get her money? Does she blow it off, or does she sell the debt to a local bad guy for a percentage?

But I've busted a lot of illegal and underground games (and a lot of other stuff) and one thing is almost always true - either they live in constant fear of being ripped off by bad guys, or the bad guys are protecting it in exchange for at least a percentage of the business. We often used the big blue tank to get into illegal games because they fortified the places out of fear of getting hit by the bad guys. The places we didn't have to use the tank were the places that had protection. If Mrs. Chen's place isn't a fort - either her game is connected, she just hasn't been hit yet, or you truly live in Wonderland where crime doesn't exist.

They don't strong arm people on the first call, but either they get their money or someone has major problems. There's a lot of road to travel from "when can I have my money?" to getting a gun stuck in your face at 0330, and most people are too scared to go very far down that road. Either they pay up or they run like hell. But there is always someone who needs a little convincing, and there are a bunch of little terrorists on call just waiting to make some money for a little fun. A call down to the local Bida gets the young boys out for a piece of the action (debt collection is like an AOC staple) and before long folks are begging to have their legs broken rather than the alternative.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO I think that is what will happen. Either we explicitly tell her how embarrassing and damaging this all is for her family, or it will be obvious from how we describe the impacts of her actions on us. I'm hoping "shame" will be very effective in keeping her out of card games. Shame will work like peer pressure from her family. And if she partially or fully defaults on her gambling debt, she will be shamed by those doing the gambling and lending because they will spread the word that she is untrustworthy. Which works out perfectly, since she won't be able to get credit from anyone to gamble more. Her 3 kids (age 9-14) were informed yesterday by my DW that their mother is a gambling addict, and has wasted away all the family's money. The gambling SIL wanted to shield her kids from the ugly truth, but they already know in varying degrees that she spends a lot of time and money gambling.

From the little tidbits that you write about what she is saying and doing even now... shame is not going to work... the intervention is not going to work... maybe even some broken legs will not work...

She is still doing what she knows... lying... trying to play the sympathy card...

If it were me... and I say this being married... I would not let my wife waste our hard earned money on her sister... and I would not waste my hard earned money on one of my sisters if they were in the same situation...


Funny thing... I have a nephew who used to not have money and try and get some from other family members... but he only asked me one time and I laughed at him... the ones who gave small amounts always got hit up again for more...

[FUEGO]

I don't want to misrepresent my SIL. She is honest and normal in many respects, and she has been able to visibly function normally. I would not say she is a "lost cause" at this point, just that this is an extremely serious problem that must be dealt with, or the inevitable conclusion will be reached on its own eventually. She knows her "secret" is now common knowledge among everyone in the family. There is no way to stealth gamble without word getting back to us.

This has only been "social" gambling among a large circle of extended family and "friends" that would gather at people's houses, usually for pretextual parties that would devolve into marathon gambling sessions. This is fairly well accepted in "the community", and has been happening for at least the decade or so that I have been in the family. Have a birthday party for someone, eat, have birthday cake, then get out the cards and the singles for some fun. Drink a little, pull out some 5's and 20's and up the ante. Usually, DW and I (and our kids) would leave some time after they got the 1's out and before the 20's came out. Crazy asian gambling isn't in my genes, and somehow DW didn't inherit those either (though she does have a scarily strange affinity for Las Vegas...). What starts out as a friendly game eventually turns into a stressful, competitive challenge to make some money by "playing superior cards" and showing that you are better than the other players.

We will find out Saturday, but I think the $23000 debt is probably owed to a number of different people in varying amounts. Maybe 2-3k for a few people, maybe more for others. I am acquainted with some of these people, and I am not aware of any organized crime affiliation, but I may be ignorant to that fact, and these creditors may resort to finding a strong man to enforce the debt for a cut.

Over the years, DW and I have distanced ourselves from these gambling parties and those in the extended family that are most heavily into the gambling. We have told DW's immediate family that some of the distant family and friends are not welcome at our house, and if they are hosting parties that are really pretexts for gambling, we won't go, or if we do, we have the birthday party or whatever and then leave. We have told them that watching other people gamble what little money they have away isn't particularly entertaining, and it isn't like they miss our company - they are completely enmeshed in their own games.

DW's brother had a "gambling problem" for a while, then just quit and knows it was stupid. Dollar amounts were probably low four figures at any one "gambling spree". Who knows - my SIL may very well do the same thing and be able to quit cold turkey. She is pretty amazing at accomplishing things I thought impossible. She has a job, and does it well apparently. They haven't lost their house or cars (yet). In some ways I look at the gambling as an addiction and illness and in some ways I look at it as a stupid way to blow a bunch of money and perpetuate one's own poverty (if you lose). I am sure that if she didn't waste money on gambling, they would find a way to spend money on something else. But as her husband says, at least if they spent everything on other stuff, they could at least enjoy it.

The SIL will have an ultimatum put to her implicitly or explicitly - pick which one you want: (1) continue gambling as long as you can, or (2) keep your husband, your kids, your parents, and your siblings as family. The two choices are mutually exclusive.

[JohnDoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO What if there is a strong possibility these people are leg-breakers or may retain the services of leg-breakers? What course of action should be followed to keep the leg breaking to a minimum? Particularly my legs, DW's legs and my kids' legs?

A defined repayment plan.