My reason for urgently needing a HELOC

[FUEGO]

Just an observation, but that last statement doesn't add up with the others. I hope you are able to hold her to the terms of the deal, and not just fix her current situation, but actually help her overcome the gambling problem.

Every time someone close to her tells her "I don't trust you", it hits home I'm sure. When I say these discussions opens her eyes, I'm not saying she is recovered 100%. Just that these are little building blocks on the road to recovery.

The intervention seemed a little like a parent scolding a bad child just from the attitudes I saw (couldn't really understand most of it since it was in Laos language). But I made sure to call SIL yesterday and just her and I talked for a while. It was much less confrontational and I think it came off more as I am concerned for her, and everyone else is concerned for her.

 

[FUEGO]

That's because she still sees the ability to win at gambling as an "easy" way to make money.

I wish you, your DW and your in-laws all the best but from reading this thread I'd say the odds are 99+% your SIL will end up in the abyss of personal and financial ruin. Keep working hard to be sure you aren't pulled even partially into it with her.

I think you are right in your assessment - she still sees gambling as an easy way to make money.

If she continues to gamble now that she has promised not to, then MIL's money faucet will be shut. That will show DW and I that she is untrustworthy, and DW will definitely shut that money faucet off. And that will be that from her family's side.

99% chance of failure? I'm looking at something like 60-70%. I think there is a significant non-zero chance that she will think about this and figure out what she needs to do. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist?

I think SIL's brother sums up everyone's deep down sentiments: "She is stupid as hell. I just want to smack her in the face".

 

[NW-Bound]

I have suggested SIL renegotiate her debt w/ her creditors. Not an option per SIL.

That's because she still sees the ability to win at gambling as an "easy" way to make money.

I think you are right in your assessment - she still sees gambling as an easy way to make money.
...
I think SIL's brother sums up everyone's deep down sentiments: "She is stupid as hell. I just want to smack her in the face".

Yes! That's how they always think: "I am going to win it all back, and then some". And they occasionally DO!

She will not renege on the "loans" from people to whom she owes money. It's part fear of losing face, part because she needs to be allowed to sit down at the card table with them again.

I really don't feel good about this. But I know it it not easy for Fuego and his wife to walk away at this point. It feels cold-hearted and so wrong, even though it is the right thing to do, to not feed her habits.

I wonder how her gambling habit escaped the detection of her husband.

 

[Westernskies]

If she continues to gamble now that she has promised not to, then MIL's money faucet will be shut. That will show DW and I that she is untrustworthy, and DW will definitely shut that money faucet off. And that will be that from her family's side.

Understand family is involved but do you really believe this?

Sounds like now she has the rest of the family gambling...on her. You're in for $10,300, so ante up!...just remember, the odds favor the house.

 

[REWahoo]

I think there is a significant non-zero chance that she will think about this and figure out what she needs to do.

I think SIL's brother sums up everyone's deep down sentiments: "She is stupid as hell...."

You don't see these two statements as more than a little contradictory?

My pessimism aside, it sounds like you have a viable plan to only give the $10k if there are signs of real change. Stay strong and don't waiver if, when the time comes, you aren't absolutely sure your SIL has seen the light.

 

[FUEGO]

You don't see these two statements as more than a little contradictory?

My pessimism aside, it sounds like you have a viable plan to only give the $10k if there are signs of real change. Stay strong and don't waiver if, when the time comes, you aren't absolutely sure your SIL has seen the light.

Maybe a little. But she can be stupid yet redeemable. People can change.

Regarding where I stand in this "negotiation": I'm feeling pretty good. My damage is limited to $10k. No decision required for 5-6 weeks. Continued gambling on SIL's part relieves me and DW from taking any action (the "I told you so" card). No money will be lent until we are subjectively sure she is done gambling. Hence we can delay for a loooong time if we just don't feel right about it.

 

[FUEGO]

Understand family is involved but do you really believe this?

Sounds like now she has the rest of the family gambling...on her. You're in for $10,300, so ante up!...just remember, the odds favor the house.

Do I really believe MIL will cut off the money if SIL keeps gambling? Not 100%. 50/50 probably. But we will have evidence to say, look, your daughter keeps lying to you. She promises she will stop then breaks that promise. Are you going to throw the rest of your life savings and your house in this bottomless pit?

FYI, this is the first occasion that SIL has promised MIL and us that she will stop gambling. DW knows this is a promise, and honoring the promise will be required or we are not going to trust SIL.

For the record, my FIL used to have a really bad gambling problem decades ago. Back in the old country. I guess he hit bottom and is cured now.

 

[FUEGO]

Yes! That's how they always think: "I am going to win it all back, and then some". And they occasionally DO!

She will not renege on the "loans" from people to whom she owes money. It's part fear of losing face, part because she needs to be allowed to sit down at the card table with them again.

This is what scares me - I know there is some element to refusal to renegotiate terms with her fellow gamblers because once she does that, she will not have a seat at the table. But by me withholding any loans, this may force her hand and make her default on these loans.

I wonder how her gambling habit escaped the detection of her husband.

He has known about this for quite a while (everyone knew SIL likes to play cards). I think it was "acceptable" but annoying for years. Just another money wasting hobby like expensive cars, motorcycles, etc etc. Mostly social gambling. Dollar amounts were small. As best I can tell, the big money gambling started a month or two ago. The losses increased, and now it is a huge financial problem for them.

The husband told me he was too soft on her for too long, but just wanted to get along with her and not make it a big deal. Now he has cut her off from accessing any more credit on any jointly titled property, taking his assets and selling them, etc. He is sticking with her for his kids' sake more than anything now. And he wants her to get better.

 

[W2R]

Regarding where I stand in this "negotiation": I'm feeling pretty good. My damage is limited to $10k.

For something you had nothing to do with. YOU weren't gambling.

Let me guess - - she didn't offer to do anything radical like take a second job in order to pay off the $10K independently, because her husband ("Mr. Gold-Necklace") would have to take care of the kids while she is at work.

 

[NW-Bound]

[The husband] has known about this for quite a while (everyone knew SIL likes to play cards). I think it was "acceptable" but annoying for years. Just another money wasting hobby like expensive cars, motorcycles, etc etc. Mostly social gambling...

Yeah, social gambling.

My late father was absolutely against gambling, and hated my mother's brother, the aforementioned gambling uncle. So, I can say that none of the four of us, me and my 3 siblings, have any tendency to gamble. Growing up, we all saw how destructive drug and gambling addiction could be. In fact, I do not play any card game, and simply do not understand how people can play the slot machines or card games for hours in Las Vegas.

On the other hand, my inlaws do some social gambling. And once, I have seen my mother-in-law sitting for hours at an one-armed bandit. So, their offsprings have a tendency to gamble at the casino also. Nothing big, but losing up to $1K is perfectly normal to them. Good thing my wife is not like her siblings, because I wouldn't be able to stand it.

I guess if one finds recreational value in losing that $1K, it might be worthwhile. To me, it is sooo boring, you would have to pay me BIG BUCKS to play. You would have to pay me at least $200/hr to sit there to pull the lever, or to accept the cards dealt to me. Why, I can program my computer to play these random games itself and sit back to watch.

I like to go to Wall St though. The stakes are much higher, in the high 6-figures, and even 7-figure. However, a play takes years, not 5 seconds to deal a hand like these simplistic card games. It's for real grown ups!

PS. Don't worry about me, I am actually a fairly conservative investor.

 

[FUEGO]

For something you had nothing to do with. YOU weren't gambling.

Let me guess - - she didn't offer to do anything radical like take a second job in order to pay off the $10K independently, because her husband ("Mr. Gold-Necklace") would have to take care of the kids while she is at work.

Yeah, I know I'm not gambling. But I have a wife who wants to help her sister. That is an expense I may have to deal with. In this situation, we have not given any money yet. And we don't intend to until specific actions have been observed and we feel it is ok to give the money.

The gambler SIL did say she has picked up extra shifts at her job. It was 3-4 days a week, now 5 a week I think.

I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but the husband has said they are cutting back on expenses such as cable and a few other things.

 

[jimnjana]

Fuego,

My unsolicited two cents. If I were in a similar situation I would insist that Husband gives gold chain as deposit on repayment, fully returnable after repayment or he sells them and uses cash to pay off debt. Also, their paid for car(s) could be sold and beater/less expensive vehicles purchased. From the outside, just looks like SIL and husband are not feeling any/enough pain... Good luck and boy am I glad I'm not in your situation.

 

[TromboneAl]

had not really eaten anything all day other than splitting one sub sandwich 4 ways for breakfast (no money).

If they could find a fast food restaurant that has some kind of scratch-off game card, everyone could be happy.

 

[haha]

I wish to send thanks to everyone involved in this, as it is easily the most interesting thread to appear around here ever. This is why Dostoevsky wrote The Gambler and not SWR Guy.

Ha

 

[FUEGO]

I wish to send thanks to everyone involved in this, as it is easily the most interesting thread to appear around here ever.

I'll pass the thanks on to my SIL.

May we all live in interesting times.

 

[W2R]

The gambler SIL did say she has picked up extra shifts at her job. It was 3-4 days a week, now 5 a week I think.

Poor baby! Having to work one full time job like everybody else in the world?

I suspect I am not the only one here who has had to work two fulltime jobs at sometime along the road. Yes, it's no fun. I think she ought to try it before trying to wheedle money out of you.

 

[SecondCor521]

We are not giving her any of our money until we know she is recovering.

The cynical part of my mind thinks that your SIL is planning on putting up with not gambling for a few weeks in order to get the $10.3K out of you.

Not to be "pun"-nish, but I'd guess she sees that as a very good bet.

2Cor521

 

[Texas Proud]

Fuego,

My unsolicited two cents. If I were in a similar situation I would insist that Husband gives gold chain as deposit on repayment, fully returnable after repayment or he sells them and uses cash to pay off debt. Also, their paid for car(s) could be sold and beater/less expensive vehicles purchased. From the outside, just looks like SIL and husband are not feeling any/enough pain... Good luck and boy am I glad I'm not in your situation.

I have said the same thing... but since HE does not think anybody should help her out... he is not going to do it...

 

[Texas Proud]

I can just see it... MIL.. "No, I REALLY mean it this time".... as she writes another check to SIL...

But you did say that the big money only started a couple of months ago.. so it is not like this has happened before...

I am surprised at how people can waste away their money so quickly... I enjoy gambling a bit, but it usually goes so quickly I do not do it...

 

[Nova]

I wish to send thanks to everyone involved in this, as it is easily the most interesting thread to appear around here ever. This is why Dostoevsky wrote The Gambler and not SWR Guy.

Ha

I, too, have found this thread to be most interesting. I usually just read the finanical threads, but this one caught my attention. I must confess that I was as anxious as anyone to see what happened at the intervention.

The fact that SIL has a gambling problem is bad, and the thought that you might feel obligated to lend (give) her money to pay off her gambling debts is a real waste, but the saddest part to me is the impact SIL's behavior has on the kids (self esteem issues...Mom spends her time and money gambling instead of on me; Mom has gambling debt she can't pay, but the family will pay it for her...so I can do what ever I want because nothing really bad happens anyway, etc.). IIRC, you mentioned that this SIL has been named in your will to care for your children in the event that you and DW die. Does that still work for you?

 

[Meadbh]

I think Fuego and DW are having the wool pulled over their eyes. They are frantically rationalizing how "helping" family will achieve the desired result. It's not going to work.

This will not end well.

 

[donheff]

Fuego,

My unsolicited two cents. If I were in a similar situation I would insist that Husband gives gold chain as deposit on repayment... Also, their paid for car(s) could be sold

I have said the same thing... but since HE does not think anybody should help her out... he is not going to do it...

It would seem that "HE" knows better than you and the culprit's sister. Why in the world would you bail out someone who's own husband (who still lives with her) feels deserves no help?

 

[Westernskies]

I think Fuego and DW are having the wool pulled over their eyes. They are frantically rationalizing how "helping" family will achieve the desired result. It's not going to work.

This will not end well.

Agree- especially since the SIL's DH won't even put his gold chain or SUV up for collateral. He obviously doesn't think there will be any physical repercussions. This is a handout, not a helping hand.

IMO, the best thing would be no cash help- SIL needs to lose face with the local gambling community. Being banned from the table for non-payment would solve the problem of future gambling with these sharks.

"This will not end well."
+1

 

[JohnDoe]

Fuego,

My unsolicited two cents. If I were in a similar situation I would insist that Husband gives gold chain as deposit on repayment, fully returnable after repayment or he sells them and uses cash to pay off debt. Also, their paid for car(s) could be sold and beater/less expensive vehicles purchased. From the outside, just looks like SIL and husband are not feeling any/enough pain... Good luck and boy am I glad I'm not in your situation.

Perhaps the gold chain is only really worth $70. Hey, if it's not an emergency to him, the he!! with putting up my money.

I would have also required, if I was hosting the intervention, that it be English only if at all possible.

Has it been mentioned how she specifically lost it gambling and how she owes different people?

 

[NW-Bound]

For the record, my FIL used to have a really bad gambling problem decades ago. Back in the old country. I guess he hit bottom and is cured now.

Just now saw the above. Yes, I have seen "Like father like son" ringing true in more than one occasion. I have described my own family and my wife's situation in an earlier post.

About my gambling uncle, at least one of his daughters was also into gambling. Last I heard, she stopped for now. "Out of money" was the reason. And having to do menial work to make a living sure takes away all the free time to gamble.