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Old 06-12-2016, 06:54 PM   #21
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I remember when visiting Big Bend National Park (Tx), I saw signs on certain trails warning you that no pets are allowed and to pickup and carry your kids due to concerns with Bears and Mountain Lions in the area. WTF! So do they think that the bears and lions won't attack adults? (Yes I know why they tell you to pick up your kids) They even say that if you encounter a bear or lion, not to run away but to walk away slowly and/or throw rocks at them to scare them off. You can bet I'll be throwing something if a bear or lion comes at me. Weight of object 240 gains, speed of object ~1500 fps. Repeat if necessary.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:10 PM   #22
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Honestly, I think some people think Yellowstone is just a big outdoors zoo and that wild animals are harmless.

Something comes to mind about a Japanese family taking their kid over to a huge bison bull so they could snap a picture. But I don't think I witnessed that but rather heard about it.

I do remember being in a parking lot where a mama bear and two cubs where feasting on rose hips across the road, and the NP service rangers where having to corral the audience and keep them from crossing the road and getting to close.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:13 PM   #23
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Part of the challenge at National Parks is the relatively easy access to natural beauty. I believe it is a good thing that, for example, there is a road into the Yosemite Valley and shuttle buses in Zion. Because of the access, millions of people have been able to enjoy / gaze in wonder at some of the most amazing views I have ever seen. But, easy access also makes it easier for the idiots to visit.

Hopefully, for every numbskull who goes around barriers or carves graffiti into a rock, there are many people who are inspired to learn more about the outdoors and become friends / caretakers of it.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:01 PM   #24
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You can bet I'll be throwing something if a bear or lion comes at me. Weight of object 240 gains, speed of object ~1500 fps. Repeat if necessary.
From the US Fish and Wildlife Services:

Quote:
The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury froma charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:17 PM   #25
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In Yellowstone, we saw an early-teenage boy jumping off the boardwalk to wander off into the geyser area, despite the posted signs warning of danger. Other visitors yelled to him to get out. His father was there and told him to ignore the warning. I heard clearly that he said "they are just jealous".

I was in shock. Jealous of what? With a father like that, the chance of this boy living to an adult age would be greatly diminished.
As a father of boys that went through the teen aged years, I can empathize with the father of this boy. I can only imagine the father of girls would have actually been cheering the young man on.

These days, both my boys tell their own children that they are to listen to gramma when they leave them with us.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:06 AM   #26
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When we went to Niagara Falls on the Canadian side, we saw folks climbing on the fence at the edge of the falls (picture shows the fence and water).
If you fall over, you are gone.
Sure enough a week after we were there some female student fell over.
About 30 years ago, a woman dropped her baby over while holding it up in the air, the day before I arrived there.


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Old 06-13-2016, 08:31 AM   #27
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From the US Fish and Wildlife Services:The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury froma charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.
As the old man said in the movie Shooter = They also said that artificial sweeteners were safe, WMDs were in Iraq and Anna Nicole married for love.

I'm not sure if bear/pepper spray works or not and I hope I never get so close to a bear to try it, especially a 1200+ lb charging Grizzle. However, I know the stopping power of my 44, so if I'm forced to decide, I'll take my chances with it.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:45 AM   #28
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I'm not sure if bear/pepper spray works or not and I hope I never get so close to a bear to try it, especially a 1200+ lb charging Grizzle. However, I know the stopping power of my 44, so if I'm forced to decide, I'll take my chances with it.
According to a friend who has lived in Alaska for decades, bear spray does work.

Long ago, I used to go camping in bear country and those trips are the only ones where I also carried a .44 magnum (Dirty Harry gun). That's the least I would have any confidence in with bears. Their skulls are extremely hard and the angles make most bullets simply bounce off.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:53 AM   #29
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Of course I'm just joking, but an alternative to spraying the poor, innocent, but angry bear, is to just spray the idiot antagonizing the bear and then run. As slow a runner as I am, I think I could outrun a pepper sprayed idiot on a tree lined trail.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:56 AM   #30
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According to a friend who has lived in Alaska for decades, bear spray does work.

Long ago, I used to go camping in bear country and those trips are the only ones where I also carried a .44 magnum (Dirty Harry gun). That's the least I would have any confidence in with bears. Their skulls are extremely hard and the angles make most bullets simply bounce off.
I'd much rather have my 458 WinMag myself, but if I only my 44mag and a can of bear spray, I'll still take the 44.
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Old 06-13-2016, 09:39 AM   #31
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Like ChiliP, I remarked many times in our travels how unencumbered hikers and visitors to natural areas in other countries are. Visiting Tikal, in Guatemala, you are free to climb the towers, with one offering only rickety old wood ladders lashed to the side, and wander around on top. If you fell off, well, too bad. The whole thing would have been roped off if it was in the USA. Likewise the also ill-advised chasing of wild camels in Mongolia.

When in Yellowstone a few years ago, we saw no less than 100 people lined up to take photos along a road of a mama bear and her cubs. The rangers were there, preventing people from getting any closer. Otherwise I'm sure more than a few would have gone right up to her.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:01 AM   #32
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When in Yellowstone a few years ago, we saw no less than 100 people lined up to take photos along a road of a mama bear and her cubs. The rangers were there, preventing people from getting any closer. Otherwise I'm sure more than a few would have gone right up to her.
Sadly, I've seen pics and articles describing the same problem in the Smoky Mountains National Park of groups of people getting too close to bears. Nowadays, even inexpensive cameras can be bought with zoom as a feature, so idiots really have no excuse for trying to get so close to a bear (especially mama bear with cubs) just to get a photo.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:16 AM   #33
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Sadly, I've seen pics and articles describing the same problem in the Smoky Mountains National Park of groups of people getting too close to bears. Nowadays, even inexpensive cameras can be bought with zoom as a feature, so idiots really have no excuse for trying to get so close to a bear (especially mama bear with cubs) just to get a photo.
Yeah but how do I get to pet Yogi and Boo boo?


I watched a woman in Yellowstone work her way, while taking photos, between a Cow Elk and her Calf. I thought I'd say something but I likely would have just ticked this genius off. At least she appeared to have no children to teach her creative behavior to.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:20 AM   #34
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I'd much rather have my 458 WinMag myself, but if I only my 44mag and a can of bear spray, I'll still take the 44.
I'd like to see a contest between a vegan and a gun owner to see who can most vigorously announce their convictions to the most people in the shortest amount of time.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:20 AM   #35
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Yosemite is full of death traps when water is high flowing. I could not believe all the people near swift moving water when I was there. One slip, and you are over a fall.

This is even after 4 people died in the previous two weeks before we were there. It was all very well publicized, but it still doesn't stop idiots.

Below Vernal Falls, we could look at the rapids with the knowledge that two people were in there, dead. You could not see them, they were trapped between rocks in the froth.

"Why don't they remove the bodies? This is crazy, they need to! They deserve it!"

No they don't. It is an unsafe task. Better to let them there essentially preserved in the cold water until it settles down in a few weeks, when they can safely extract.

Harsh reality, yet it still wasn't stopping the idiotic behavior we saw. That planking maneuver in front of Niagara a few posts up is nothing compared to the "extreme" behavior we were seeing above falls in Yosemite.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:41 AM   #36
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We had a winter break in Springdale the gateway to Zion. It was the end of January and very quiet. Our hotel had a fantastic view of the Zion Cliffs. The day after we left a couple on their honeymoon based jumped off said cliffs.She died, he lived but I think he might have gotten a citation as it's obviously against the law in a National Park.

Oh my, that would be a nasty call to make to your new/no longer in-laws.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:12 AM   #37
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We had a winter break in Springdale the gateway to Zion. It was the end of January and very quiet. Our hotel had a fantastic view of the Zion Cliffs. The day after we left a couple on their honeymoon based jumped off said cliffs.She died, he lived but I think he might have gotten a citation as it's obviously against the law in a National Park.

Oh my, that would be a nasty call to make to your new/no longer in-laws.
Not a national park, stupidity knows no boundaries. Cousin has a place on one of the Finger lakes. A bunch of years ago they were going between cabins at dusk. A young couple who were meeting her parents for the first time was enjoying a night on the lake in a canoe, without the required marking lights. It ended horribly for them.

So sad, but they gambled and we're apparently somehow ignorant of the dangers.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:29 AM   #38
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According to a friend who has lived in Alaska for decades, bear spray does work.
I agree with your friend, bears have incredibly sensitive noses, and they can smell you miles away. This article suggests bear spray will increase you survival vs gun approach:
https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie...ar%20spray.pdf
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:37 AM   #39
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Not a national park, stupidity knows no boundaries. Cousin has a place on one of the Finger lakes. A bunch of years ago they were going between cabins at dusk. A young couple who were meeting her parents for the first time was enjoying a night on the lake in a canoe, without the required marking lights. It ended horribly for them.

So sad, but they gambled and we're apparently somehow ignorant of the dangers.
Somehow I find it hard to believe you could be in ignorance about the dangers of cliff base jumping
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:17 PM   #40
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What do you expect...humans live in an artificial environment they created (cities.) Most rarely get out in the wilderness...though some would say national parks are not the real wilderness.

Media plays a big part in the fact that people think bears/bison/lions/moose/etc are cuddly gentle creatures. Look up anthropomorphic. Between cartoons and movies...people are really that dumb and they have no idea how ferocious wildlife have to be to survive.

There is no way to stop it. The only thing that may deter people is to slap them with enormous fines...$1,000 minimum maybe...maybe more. National parks are always complaining about funding. This could be a great opportunity. You will always have a steady flow of dumb people.

My wife and I have been to almost all the NP's...we rarely go during "touron" season. Its too frustrating watching people do whatever they want because they feel entitled or just dont care.
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