NE Patriots, cheating, and related topics

[utrecht]

Moderator note: this thread has been created to continue the discussion regarding the NE Patriots, cheating, and related topics. The posts here were transferred from the NFL 2015 thread.
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My opinion was that Buffalo had enough talent to overtake NE this year. My opinion as wrong.
Its not an opinion that playing easier team makes it easier to win and easier to build up better stats. Do you think a teams stats would be better if they played NE 16 times or San Diego 16 times?
This is why there are so many arguments in this thread. The 3 or 4 Pats fans in this thread refuse to hear anything other than the Pats are the best team ever assembled. Why cant you just look at your team objectively and say "we have a great team but we've only played one other really great team and lost so I'm a little worried that maybe we are over confidant"? That doesnt mean you are a traitor. Jeez.

[Corporateburnout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht This is why there are so many arguments in this thread. The 3 or 4 Pats fans in this thread refuse to hear anything other than the Pats are the best team ever assembled.

It all started when some Pats haters on this forum openly and constantly attacked Belichick, Brady and the Pats and refused to give them credit for being the most dominant team of the last 15 years and the most successful dynasty in the salary cap and free agency era. Those 3-4 fans who never posted any hatred towards other teams took it upon themselves to defend their team.

[utrecht]

I dont know who refused to acknowledge the Pats as a great team and most dominant team of the last 15 years but it wasnt me. The only thing Ive said is that theyve been caught cheating more than once and that takes some of the shine off of them.

[pb4uski]

Being caught cheating more than once is hardly notable in the NFL.

[Corporateburnout]

Well even in sports discussion we have to be very sensitive to "arguments". These have been benign discussions/disagreements with no political or other sensitive connotations. This will be my last comment on this.

[utrecht]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Being caught cheating more than once is hardly notable in the NFL.

That depends on your definition of cheating and the degree of it. Im not talking about faking a cramp to slow a team down. Im talking about cheating to the point of being fined $100,000s and taking draft picks away.

[ChiliPepr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht That depends on your definition of cheating and the degree of it. Im not talking about faking a cramp to slow a team down. Im talking about cheating to the point of being fined $100,000s and taking draft picks away.

Here is a list of all the draft picks that have been taken away from NFL teams since 1980:


2015 New England Patriots
Transgression: Deflating footballs used in the AFC Championship Game
Forfeited pick(s): 2016 first-rounder, 2017 fourth-rounder


2015 Atlanta Falcons
Transgression: Pumping artificial noise into their stadium
Forfeited pick(s): 2016 fifth-rounder


2012 New Orleans Saints
Transgression: Paying bonuses, or "bounties," for injuring opposing players
Forfeited pick(s): 2012 second-rounder, 2013 second-rounder


2011 Detroit Lions
Transgression: Tampering with safety Jarrad Page, who was under contract with the Kansas City Chiefs
Forfeited pick(s): 2011 seventh-rounder plus swap of picks with Chiefs in the fifth round


2008 San Francisco 49ers
Transgression: Tampering with linebacker Lance Briggs, who was under contract with the Chicago Bears
Forfeited pick(s): 2008 fifth-rounder plus swap of picks with Bears in third round


2008 New England Patriots
Transgression: Videotaping New York Jets coaches' signals on the sideline during a 2007 game
Forfeited pick(s): 2008 first-rounder


2002 Denver Broncos
Transgression: Circumventing the salary cap between 1996-98
Forfeited pick(s): 2005 3rd-rounder, 2002 3rd-rounder


2001 San Francisco 49ers
Transgression: Violating salary cap rules
Forfeited pick(s): 2001 5th-rounder, 2002 3rd-rounder


2001 Pittsburgh Steelers
Transgression: Exceeding the 1998 salary cap
Forfeited pick(s): 2001 third-rounder


1986 New England Patriots
Transgression: Illegal use of injured-reserve list
Forfeited pick(s): 1986 third-rounder


1981 Denver Broncos
Transgression: Contract violations involving defensive back Bill Thompson
Forfeited pick(s): 1981 third-rounder


1981 Oakland Raiders
Transgression: Illegally sequestering players in 1978
Forfeited pick(s): 1981 fifth-rounder


1980 Philadelphia Eagles
Transgression: Holding an illegal tryout
Forfeited pick(s): 1980 third-rounder


1980 Oakland Raiders
Transgression: Evasion of player limit
Forfeited pick(s): 1980 fourth-rounder

[utrecht]

Most of that stuff I personally consider minor but I guess the NFL doesnt. Tampering with a player violates rules but I dont personally consider it cheating. Thats just my opinion. Same thing with salary cap violations. That's administrative crap.

But of all the things listed, 21% of all of them are violations by the Patriots and this list doesn't include video taping the Rams practices before the Super Bowl. Maybe they didn't lose a draft pick that time but to me that is the most heinous of all.

The Patriots are also the ONLY team to have a 1st round pick taken from them and its happened TWICE. Those are very serious violations. I dont know how anyone could look at this list and say the Pats aren't the biggest cheaters.

I rest my case.

PS..The stupid thing is that I seriously doubt the Patriots needed to do any of those things to win anymore than Chris Davis or Nelson Cruz needed HGH to hit home runs. They both hit a million HRs after coming back from suspension when we have to assume they were no longer on it.

[ChiliPepr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht this list doesn't include video taping the Rams practices before the Super Bowl.

Never happened. GOODELL: PATRIOTS DID NOT TAPE RAMS | New York Post

[utrecht]

Wow. That's the first time Ive seen that. Disregard that one then.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht ....this list doesn't include video taping the Rams practices before the Super Bowl. Maybe they didn't lose a draft pick that time but to me that is the most heinous of all. ....

That is funny utrecht... the most heinous of all is something that didn't actually happen .... par for the course.

Actually, I disagree with you. To me the most heinous violation was the Saints bounty-gate violations.

[Mulligan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski That is funny utrecht... the most heinous of all is something that didn't actually happen .... par for the course. Actually, I disagree with you. To me the most heinous violation was the Saints bounty-gate violations.

What I find interesting is how the landscape of societal changes have also changed sports. Bounties were as common as dirt in the 70s and 80s. "Gamesmanship" was a successful term used to justify all sorts of cheating occurring back in the day. If you weren't cheating, you weren't trying to win was the thought. That doesn't hold water in todays era.


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[steelyman]

If ChiliPepr's list is complete, it looks like everyone managed to behave themselves in the 90s.

[utrecht]

Obviously the league has really cracked down on the violence of the game which is what made Bounty Gate so heinous, but I didnt think it was that big a deal at the time. I mean its a game where people are supposed to hit each other hard. They get paid a lot of money to hit each other hard. The Saints were just giving out extra bonuses for hitting even harder. Now if they were intentionally cheap shotting people that would be different. I dont remember that happening, but I could be wrong.

[utrecht]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut Whether cheating is minor depends on its effect on the game. In the deflating football cheat, the victory was so one sided it was not an issue. However, had the Pats won by 28-27, then it is possbile it could have tossed the game the other way. The list of violations and the argument for excusing them, remind me of middle school kids, caught red handed doing something wrong, using this 'logic' to defend their guilt. Not so good.

The Patriot game just before this inflategate game was very close. One has to wonder if they underinfated the balls in that game and got away with it and how much it helped Brady.

[Mulligan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut Whether cheating is minor depends on its effect on the game. In the deflating football cheat, the victory was so one sided it was not an issue. However, had the Pats won by 28-27, then it is possbile it could have tossed the game the other way. The list of violations and the argument for excusing them, remind me of middle school kids, caught red handed doing something wrong, using this 'logic' to defend their guilt. Not so good.

Yes, but that was the way it was...Media has driven the perception change...Gaylord Perry was a celebrity in himself for "doctoring the baseball" and media loved to report on the allegations with glee. Now if he was on the mound they would be leading the parade to ban him for it. Im not commenting on this being right or wrong just how perception has changed...
Suh has been vilified for his "dirty play" in this era. In the 70s, Conrad Dobler was a celebrity for being the dirtiest player in NFL.


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[MichaelB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper1 I must be a glutton for punishment watching Bears play the last two weeks.

Better watching the Bears lose again than the neverending bickering about the Patriots cheating ...

[utrecht]

The bickering here would stop if Pats fans would say "I love my team. They are the greatest team. I just wish they wouldnt have tried to skirt the rules. I dont condone that.", instead of trying to defend them and make excuses for the cheating.

[utrecht]

Pete Rosa not being in the HOF is a complete travesty. Why does gambling have anything to do with how great a player he was? I understand why they dont want to allow him back into baseball but the HOF is a different subject all together.

There are plenty of people in the HOF who are not the most innocent of people.

Is Pete Rose one of the best baseball players of all time? Nobody can possibly say No. Let him in.

Rose has never been accused of betting AGAINST his team. Personally I dont even care that he gambled. Especially when he gambled ON his team. That just made him try even harder. Why is that a bad thing?

[Corporateburnout]

Quote:

Originally Posted by utrecht The bickering here would stop if Pats fans would say "I love my team. They are the greatest team. I just wish they wouldnt have tried to skirt the rules. I dont condone that.", instead of trying to defend them and make excuses for the cheating.

The bickering would stop when you stop bring the cheating issue up.

BTW I thought the moderators suggested to refrain from pro Pats and anti Pats discussions