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Old 11-30-2012, 11:33 AM   #41
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Your last post has convinced me that you need to run from this broker and get with Vanguard - but you really had me at the 1.25% management fee!!!
Hahaha!
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
The pdf helps. A reasonable estimate of your total return would be as follows:

_________________________(Income earned + Change in value)_______________________________
[Opening value + 50%*(Cash deposited + securities deposited - cash withdrawn - Securities withdrawn)]

and if the amounts above are for less than a full year, then divide the result by the portion of a year the amounts refer to to get an approximate annual rate.

As hlfo718 mentions, it is unclear where the management fees are so that is a question that your broker should be able to answer. If the management fees are netted against the income earned, then you are all set. If they are included in withdrawals, then reduce the return that you computed above by ~1.25%.
I'm not sure I understand your equation. Not clear on what the 50% is for.

Here is a copy of one of our most recent statements from one of our accounts. [Attachment removed by mod team] This is just the snap shot and summary pages. The rest is just detail of the various equities.

I actually called the WF Advisors this morning and spoke to my broker's assistant. She tried, but could not help me determine my percent of earnings through October from my statement and told me that WF does not provide a good way to understand this. Her words.

She did say she would put together a 10 year performance report for me, or at least as near to that as she can get.

Pete
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:04 PM   #43
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The 50% is used as a proxy of moving money in and out for the year...

If you put in the same amount of money every month, then the average you have invested over the full year is only half that amount... this does not make the calculation correct, but is closer that excluding it or putting it all in....

I actually do a weighted average on my monthly investments whenever I do a calculation as it is more accurate....
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:29 PM   #44
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The 50% is used as a proxy of moving money in and out for the year...

If you put in the same amount of money every month, then the average you have invested over the full year is only half that amount... this does not make the calculation correct, but is closer that excluding it or putting it all in....

I actually do a weighted average on my monthly investments whenever I do a calculation as it is more accurate....
Agreed, but please note that I had been clear in my post that the 50% formula is a reasonable approximation of the return - the 50% essentially assumes that deposits or withdrawals occur uniformly during the period.

The most accurate is an XIRR calculation that looks at the actual dates that each deposit or withdrawal occurs, but there usually won't be a huge difference between the XIRR and the reasonable approximation unless there is an unusually large dump in or withdrawal.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:57 PM   #45
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Investor's Manifesto by Bernstein is high on most lists. You can preview at Google Books.

Glad you understood my churning example. The point was that if you duplicate 16 funds across three spaces for a total of 48 funds, and then rebalance, there is churning. Are you seeing fees for the buys/sells?

In my in-law example, the funds are all within USAA, so no trading fees. Their AUM are only about one-quarter of all investments, so the 1% fee is relatively low. In addition, the advisor arm acted on in-laws behalf to firmly push for movement of their assets away from an independent. They also met with us locally, resulting in other changes which were beneficial.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:20 PM   #46
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Agreed, but please note that I had been clear in my post that the 50% formula is a reasonable approximation of the return - the 50% essentially assumes that deposits or withdrawals occur uniformly during the period.

The most accurate is an XIRR calculation that looks at the actual dates that each deposit or withdrawal occurs, but there usually won't be a huge difference between the XIRR and the reasonable approximation unless there is an unusually large dump in or withdrawal.

I saw your post.... and understood it... was just trying to answer the other poster's question....
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:36 PM   #47
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Earlier I posted a copy of one of our account statements. I thought I had blacked out the personal information, but apparently my efforts were less than satisfactory. Thankfully one of the moderators caught it and pulled the attachment.

Thanks for the explanation of the 50%. At this point we've been retired for just over three years having successfully sold our business in July of 2009. So other than the 401K rollovers into our existing SEP IRA accounts in February this year we have only been putting money into our accounts infrequently as our income is much different now.

We have some rental property, and we partially financed the sale of our business which provides us monthly payments, so, we have income that allows us to leave our portfolio alone at this point.

Really all the more reason to get it into a much less expensive form of maintenance.

So if I wanted to contact Vangard or Fidelity I guess I can just call them and they'll assign someone to speak with me?

Pete
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:51 PM   #48
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Yes. And at least at Vanguard given the level of assets you have you should be eligible for a complimentary financial planning exercise by a salaried certified financial planner in terms of how to best structure your investments. In addition, once you decide the end result you want they will work with your current provider in the transition.

Be prepared for WF to hem and haw, stall, hinder and delay if for no other reason than losing fees.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:52 PM   #49
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I saw your post.... and understood it... was just trying to answer the other poster's question....
Got it now.... sorry...I missed his question, hence my confusion.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:26 PM   #50
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So if I wanted to contact Vangard or Fidelity I guess I can just call them and they'll assign someone to speak with me?
At the risk of confusing the issue, do you have any idea what you'd like to do with your assets? Do you want to hold individual stocks, mutual funds (passive or active), ETFs? Do you have a sense of what kind of asset allocation you'd be comfortable with? IOW, your risk tolerance? You're safe with Vanguard or Fidelity, but they are not one in the same, they have slightly different strengths/characteristics based on my experience with both. A few days or weeks isn't going to make much difference, it might serve you well to do a little research/reading.

We've given a few suggestions for books, here's another online source http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page FWIW...
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:51 PM   #51
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At the risk of confusing the issue, do you have any idea what you'd like to do with your assets? Do you want to hold individual stocks, mutual funds (passive or active), ETFs? Do you have a sense of what kind of asset allocation you'd be comfortable with? IOW, your risk tolerance? You're safe with Vanguard or Fidelity, but they are not one in the same, they have slightly different strengths/characteristics based on my experience with both. A few days or weeks isn't going to make much difference, it might serve you well to do a little research/reading.

We've given a few suggestions for books, here's another online source Bogleheads FWIW...
Not confusing in the least. I intend to pursue the suggested reading and to look into my options as I become more informed including looking at Vangard, Fidelity, etc. I agree that a few more weeks won't make a critical difference. I consider all of the suggestions I've received invaluable, And I intend to at least explore them.

For years I've been used to a portfolio largely comprised of stocks and ETFs so changing to MFs may not be the direction I ultimately chose to go, but I get a sense of the benefits that the right MFs represent.

Mostly I want to know that I'm seeing a reasonable return based on the condition of the market at any given time without having to constantly check on my holdings. We like to wilderness camp and that does not lend itself well to cell phones and internet.

All that said, I realize I need to understand all of this in order to make the most informed decision so I guess I better start with the reading.

I'll still have questions to be sure, but at least now I know where I can get some good help.

Thanks,
Pete
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:50 PM   #52
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.....We have some rental property, and we partially financed the sale of our business which provides us monthly payments, so, we have income that allows us to leave our portfolio alone at this point.

Really all the more reason to get it into a much less expensive form of maintenance. .....
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.....Mostly I want to know that I'm seeing a reasonable return based on the condition of the market at any given time without having to constantly check on my holdings. We like to wilderness camp and that does not lend itself well to cell phones and internet.......
MFs and ETFs are pretty similar - in fact many of Vanguard's most popular index funds have mutual fund and ETF versions that are substantively the same for long term investors.

If you're really interested in low maintenance.......
psst.....Wellesley

(or Wellington or Star, depending on your risk appetite).

[Inside joke - hand around here long enough and you'll understand].
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:28 PM   #53
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Check out Rick Ferri and his Portfolio Solutions or Evanson Asset Management
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:18 AM   #54
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Not confusing in the least. I intend to pursue the suggested reading and to look into my options as I become more informed including looking at Vangard, Fidelity, etc. I agree that a few more weeks won't make a critical difference. I consider all of the suggestions I've received invaluable, And I intend to at least explore them.

For years I've been used to a portfolio largely comprised of stocks and ETFs so changing to MFs may not be the direction I ultimately chose to go, but I get a sense of the benefits that the right MFs represent.

Mostly I want to know that I'm seeing a reasonable return based on the condition of the market at any given time without having to constantly check on my holdings. We like to wilderness camp and that does not lend itself well to cell phones and internet.

All that said, I realize I need to understand all of this in order to make the most informed decision so I guess I better start with the reading.

I'll still have questions to be sure, but at least now I know where I can get some good help.

Thanks,
Pete
Occurs to me this Lazy Portfolios - Bogleheads might be an excellent place to start also. Good optimization of risk vs return, very low expenses, and requiring very little knowledge/maintenance. Many of the members here have portfolios that resemble one of these.

I'd also recommend you consider staying entirely with mutual funds or ETFs. After reading your posts, I'm not sure you should be picking individual stocks. But don't take that wrong, individual stock picking takes more effort than funds and there's far more risk (upside and downside) - and Vanguard & Fidelity really aren't well equipped to advise you on individual stock picking. And many folks here no longer hold any individual stocks.

Best of luck Pete...
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:05 AM   #55
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Lots of insight is found in Trev's Backtest S/S.

There is a Lazy Portfolios tab in the workbook. I am surprised at the spread of returns. The 3-fund approach had a terrible year in 2011.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:08 AM   #56
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Lots of insight is found in Trev's Backtest S/S.

There is a Lazy Portfolios tab in the workbook. I am surprised at the spread of returns. The 3-fund approach had a terrible year in 2011.
And beat all others in some years.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:44 AM   #57
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And beat all others in some years.
The tab that compares the portfolios from 1985 onward does not show that. Maybe we are on different data sets?
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:23 PM   #58
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Occurs to me this Lazy Portfolios - Bogleheads might be an excellent place to start also. Good optimization of risk vs return, very low expenses, and requiring very little knowledge/maintenance. Many of the members here have portfolios that resemble one of these.

I'd also recommend you consider staying entirely with mutual funds or ETFs. After reading your posts, I'm not sure you should be picking individual stocks. But don't take that wrong, individual stock picking takes more effort than funds and there's far more risk (upside and downside) - and Vanguard & Fidelity really aren't well equipped to advise you on individual stock picking. And many folks here no longer hold any individual stocks.

Best of luck Pete...
Hahaha, I do not take it the wrong way. Sometimes you just gotta call em like you see em. BTW, I think you're right.

Pete
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:54 AM   #59
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Occurs to me this Lazy Portfolios - Bogleheads might be an excellent place to start also. Good optimization of risk vs return, very low expenses, and requiring very little knowledge/maintenance. Many of the members here have portfolios that resemble one of these.

I'd also recommend you consider staying entirely with mutual funds or ETFs. After reading your posts, I'm not sure you should be picking individual stocks. But don't take that wrong, individual stock picking takes more effort than funds and there's far more risk (upside and downside) - and Vanguard & Fidelity really aren't well equipped to advise you on individual stock picking. And many folks here no longer hold any individual stocks.

Best of luck Pete...
Hi, I am PeteW's wife and reading the posts, I was wondering what the consensus is on the Rational Investing plan which is covered in Bob Clyatt's book, "Work Less, Live More"? It seems very straightforward and an "easier, softer way" to me since it is all laid out for you. Is anyone following his program and if so, satisfied with the results?
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:10 AM   #60
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I have no personal experience with it but Clyatt's Rational Investing portfolio has been discussed several times on the forum. You'll find many threads on the subject if you put Rational Investing in the Google search box up near the top of the page.

You might also search for Clyatt's posts on the forum. He posts here as ESRBob.
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